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The Great Consumer Vortex

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Realizing I left two people out when I thought I had purchased for everyone, I readied myself for the onslaught and ventured into the The Great Consumer Vortex. After circling the Target parking lot for 9 rotations, I found a spot. I lingered and waited, like a hawk citing roadkill. When my front and his rear bumpers cleared, I claimed my space. While only 80 feet from the door, dodging sedans, SUV’s, pickups, skateboards, shopping carts, scooters, and random, racing toddlers, I crossed the Target threshold after 29 life-inhibiting minutes.

What to buy?, what to buy?.  I felt like a laptop reboot succumbing to the season: : “Let it load, let it load, let it load”. All cashier aisles were open, narry a small line amongst them. Ohhhhh    Mmmmmmm    Geeeee. I’ll be here all phuckin’ day. “What would Al Swearingin do?”, was my self-querry (I’ve been DVD-ing Deadwood of late). So I quickly grabbed two pairs of $1.00 socks from the cheapo section and then two Target gift cards.  I studied the people who were #2, #3, and #4 positions in the the aisles nearest where I stood. Reaching into my purse, I extracted my wallet and let my thumb’s fingernail fan the green. I pulled out a Five, and deftly replaced the wallet into the purse.

Forcing a change upon my countenance to one less psychopathically stressed, I approached the #2 position female attired in what appeared to be sleepwear pants and a top of indiscriminate fabric and design. “I’ll give you $5 to let me go ahead of you.” says I, flashing the Lincoln at face level. It worked. Hallelulah. I had only to wait for the last ring-ups of the lady in front of me now.

I eyed her cart:  Three rolls of wrapping paper, two boxed toys of unknown origin, a gallon of liquid Tide, a Hello Kitty blanket, two Princess dresses and a set of bed linen for a Queen size. Oh goodie, said I silently. Then it came. Out of the blue. Unexpected. Loud and clear. “Price Check Aisle 3″.  Phuck.  Double phuck.  I monitored four transactions completed in the aisle next to me before the clerk showed up to see the item for which to get the price check. Unaware I had stepped backward between biting down on my teeth and momentarily losing my eyesight, the lady in back of me said “You just stepped on my foot.” to which I replied “What? You want another five dollars?.” She looked at me not so annoyed as concerned. I suppose it was the sweat coming from my brow.

Finally, the clerk returned, the cashier resumed her function and the transaction concluded. It was my turn. Two pairs of socks and two gift cards. “Twenty dollars on each of the cards please”. She complied.  Fine girl. Excellent checker. What a wonderful girl. And then I heard it, but I could hardly believe it. “Excuse me I’ve run out of tape. I have to change it.” Oh god. Kill me now. There was nothing I could do but stand there and use my Ventolin dispenser. Puff. Puff. I could hear a man’s voice, behind me about 5 bodies down say “This is talking forever.” I turned, and over my shoulder “Yeah, merry fuckin’ Christmas”. There were eleven people in my line, only one chuckled. That’s less than 10%. Not a good percentage  with only 3 days left till Christmas.

But with the tape replaced and inserted, my transaction concluded, my faltering steps guiding me back to my car, I found myself back on the road home, then in my parking place, then in my abode, then collapsing on the baccalounger. I had escaped from the Vortex yet once again. A hot bubble bath, begin Deadwood Season 2, and smoke a joint. Ahhhh, Christmas.  Can’t live with it.  Can’t kill it.

 
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Posted by on December 22, 2014 in Uncategorized

 

Evolution of an Influence: “This is our real mother.”

Originally posted on Tattered Fabric: Fall River's Lizzie Borden:

Andrew Jackson Borden, from all we can surmise, loved his wife, Sarah Anthony Morse Borden.   Sarah was a pretty little thing when they married on Christmas Day, 1845.  He was 23 and she was 22.    Probably a true love match.  But it would be five years before they had any children.

Emma Lenora Borden, born March 1, 1851 was older sister to Lizzie Borden.  Unlike Lizzie, Emma knew her mother.  Knew her and loved her.

Just before Emma’s 6th birthday, a second daughter was born, Alice Ester.  Emma must have loved holding and helping to care for this little sister.  She would be taught how to nurture and protect her younger sibling by her own loving mother.  It was the “formative years” for Emma when so many character traits are instilled.  It was a sweet time, but a short time because baby Alice was to die just two…

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Posted by on December 18, 2014 in Uncategorized

 

Lizzie Borden’s “Maplecroft” Home Sold

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Finally, it happened.  After more than 2 decades trying to sell, owner Bob Dube succeeded last month.  The new owner, Kristee Bates of Dallas, Texas has plans to turn it into a Bed & Breakfast.  If her plans become reality, she couldn’t do better than to have Shelley Dziedzic be the Manager.  Her taste and affinity for the Victorian would bring class and elegance to the B&B experience.

I was first inside Mablecroft in 1992 during the Lizzie Borden Centennial Conference and again in 1999.  Since that time I’ve visited inside nearly every visit to Fall River as Bob Dube has been a good friend and gracious host.

EntrytoDining2000

Front Foyer Nov --2000

Parlour-Nov 2000

I’ve been fortunate to have spent the night there twice and used the downstairs commode (the door adjacent to the bench here) on many occasions.  It has the same tin ceiling as is in the kitchen.  And while passing nature’s liquid bodily waste, I have often stared upward at the ceiling and contemplated what might have been Lizzie’s thoughts as she did the same.   :)

MapleStairs-2000

Sadly, what is no longer at this French Street home is this beautiful stained glass window where Shelley posed in August, 1992 during the Conference and when Mr. Dube opened the house up for tours.

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Nearly a decade after purchasing the home, Mr. Dube cited the stained glass windows in particular during the property settlements with his wife.

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I’m certain Stefani Koorey, ever vigilant on the comings and goings of activity at Maplecroft, be it “For Sale” signs going up or if I’ve parked my rental in the driveway, will continue her binocular stakeouts when Ms. Bates moves in, and thus providing the details in her blog and Facebook postings.   Cautionary Note to Kristee: “Beware of neighbors bearing warm cookies of welcome.”   (wink, wink).

An now a look back at Maplecroft over the years – Click HERE.

 
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Posted by on December 12, 2014 in Maplecroft

 

LIZZIE BORDEN PRELIMINARY HEARING – PART 2

PrelimHearing

This is a continuation of Volume I of the Preliminary Hearing (see above).

Contrary to the claims of Stefani Koorey, this transcription is my own creation. Harry Widdoes did transcribe the same document, but that does not mean they can make false claim to ownership of MY work nor can I to THEIRS.

The Preliminary Hearing of the Lizzie Borden case was created in hard copy format by me in early 2000, designed and produced as seen above.  I used to sell these on eBay and later just gave them out to friends interested in researching the case.

The source document used was purchased by me in the 1990’s  from the Fall River Historical Society who sold unbound sheets of photocopies of this document.  Their source was the copy once owned by Andrew J.  Jennings, Lizzie’s attorney, which contained his handwritten notes written on back of the pages or on the margins.  The hardbound copy I created, illustrated above, includes those handwritten notes.  The electronic copy which begins on the following page, does not.  This was transcribed by me in 2001.

Faye Musselman © 2001 All rights reserved.

****************************************************************************************************************

PRELIMINARY HEARING

STENOGRAPHER’S MINUTES

VOLUME II

COMMONWEALTH Mr. Knowlton
vs.
LIZZIE A. BORDEN

Mr. Adams, Mr. Jennings

WITNESSES Direct Cross

Dr. William A. Dolan 88 111

Recalled 194

Report of Autopsy 199

Annie M. White, Stenographer
New Bedford, Mass

Page 88

DR. WILLIAM A. DOLAN

Q. (Mr. Knowlton) William A. Dolan is your name?
A. Yes.
Q. You are the Medical Examiner, Doctor?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been Medical Examiner?
A. A year last month.
Q. And you are also a practicing physician?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And have had a good many autopsies?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And have had some experience in surgery, besides?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When did you first see the body of either Mr. or Mrs. Borden?
A. Well, about quarter to twelve on the fourth of August.
Q. How do you fix the time?
A. By the time that I was in the house. I was in the house anywhere from ten to twenty minutes, when I heard the bell strike twelve, the City Hall bell.
Q. The house of Andrew J. Borden?
A. Yes.
Q. Which body did you see first?
A. I saw the body of Andrew Borden.
Q. Where was it?
A. It was lying on the lounge on the north side of the sitting room, which is on the south side of the house.
Q. Which side of the sitting room was it on?
A. On the north side.
Q. Is that the side where the windows are?
A. No Sir.
Q. Opposite the windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I will have a plan here in a few moments. On the sofa was the body lying?
A. Yes Sir.
Page 89
Q. Describe its position exactly.
A. At the head of the sofa, which was to the west, there was a Prince Albert coat folded up, that was placed on top of, I think an afghan, some knit cover, and on that was placed a small sofa cushion with a piece of the tidy on it; on that rested Mr. Borden’s head. His two feet were on the floor; and he lay in the position as if he had been asleep.
Q. On his side or on his back?
A. On the right side.
Q. Would his head be towards the front door, or towards the kitchen?
A. Towards the front door.
Q. How was his face, facing, out into the room?
A. Yes Sir, looking towards the east.
Q. Towards the kitchen window?
A. No, towards the kitchen door. Yes, he would be looking through the windows.
Q. The sitting room windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you make any examination then, more than that?
A. Yes Sir, I examined the wounds, not thoroughly, but examined them sufficiently well for the time to make a view; and later in the day I removed the stomach and sealed it in an air tight jar and sent it to Professor Wood of Boston.
Q. Removed the stomach?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What do you mean by sealed it?
A. Sealed it with sealing wax, so if it were tampered with, it would be shown.
Q. How did you send it?
A. By express.
Q. When did you see the body of Mrs. Borden?
A. I saw the body of Mrs. Borden at the same time, that is a few moments after I saw Mr. Borden’s.
Q. Where was that?
A. Up stairs in the north west room, the second story of the building.
Q. Up the front stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where in the room was it?
A. Between the dressing case and the bed. The dressing case stood against the north side; between that and the bed was the body, lying face down.
Q. How far was the bed from the dressing case? How much room was there?
A. I should judge about four or five feet.
Q. You say she was lying face down?

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A. Yes Sir.
Q. How was she dressed?
A. She was dressed, as you would expect to find a housewife at that hour in the morning, in some calico dress.
Q. Anything on her head?
A. No Sir. There was a silk handkerchief; whether it had been around her head or not, I cannot say. It was not around the head when I saw it, but near the head.
Q. What kind of a handkerchief?
A. I should think a silk one.
Q. Not on her head then?
A. No Sir.
Q. A pocket handkerchief, or a dusting handkerchief?
A. A pocket handkerchief I should say, same as they tie around their heads sometime when dusting.
Q. How hear the head was that?
A. Very near it, practically touching the head, but not on it.
Q. Was it knotted up or loose?
A. No Sir, I think it was not knotted.
Q. Was it cut?
A. I could not say whether it was cut or not; it was so old. It was torn very freely. I should not think it was cut; I should not say that it was.
Q. Was there any blood on it?
A. Yes Sir, some blood on it from the surrounding blood.
Q. Blood on the handkerchief?
A. Yes Sir.

(At this point the examination of Dr. Dolan was suspended, and Mr. Kieran, the surveyor, testified.)

(Examination of Dr. Dolan resumed)

Q. Going back now to Mr. Borden’s body, was the sheet over it when you got there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You took the sheet off?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was the appearance that presented itself to you when you took the sheet off? Describe it as well as you can.
A. It was the gastly thing I have ever seen.
(Objected to.)
Q. Give the things that made it seem gastly; we can tell whether it was gastly or not.
A. As he lay upon the right side of his face, with the left side turned up, beginning at the nose, there was one wound went straight through the nose, down through the lip, down through the lower lip, and down into the chin. Another one, beginning at the angle of the eye, went

Page 91
right straight down to about here—
(Mr. Jennings) Where?
A. On the chin. I have my record here.
Q. You say “right here”, that does not do the stenographer any good, you must say where, by describing it.
A. Will you allow me to use my record?
Q. Yes Sir; use anything you like, as far as I am concerned.
A. (Referring to notes.) The first was am incised wound.
Q. (Mr. Jennings) When did you make that record?
A. This is the record of the Autopsy made one week after; but so far as the wounds are concerned, it is probably the same as I made the day of the view. Of course the measures are more accurate on this than they were on the other.
(Mr. Jennings objected.)
(Mr. Knowlton) Put it away, Doctor; put it away. Now tell what you remember.
A. I remember another wound than commenced—
Q. You have not finished that one.
A. It commenced at the corner of the eye, and went down to about an inch above the lower angle of the lower jaw. Another one commenced, as near as I can remember, about an inch and a half or two inches, right on the forehead here, at the junction of the forehead at the side of the head.
(Mr. Jennings) You do not tell on which side.
A. I said all were on the left side. Another one commenced here. This same wound took out a piece of the bone.
Q. Commenced where?
A. The junction of the side of the head and the forehead, on the left side, and took a piece out of the skull; came down this way, down by the outer border of the eye, completely cut the eye ball in half, came down and cut the cheek bone in half, and stopped just about above the left angle of the mouth. There were ten wounds in all on the face and the head, all parallel, all ranging from four inches to two
and a half inches and an inch and a half; that is, the largest was four and a half, as I cam remember now, and from that down to an inch and a half; they were all sizes, that is, lengths. Right here, above the left ear—
Q. How far above?
A. I should judge about an inch and a half above the ear, there was, as it were, a crushing wound which carried the skull with it into the brain, and made an opening about two and a half by four inches long; four inches long, by two and a half wide.
Q. What was the direction of that four inches, was that up and down?
A. Length wise; cross ways to the head from the ear up, as it were, in that direction.
Q. How many of these were apparent as you uncovered the sheet, and found him lying there?
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A. Practically all of them.
Q. How deep were these wounds on the face that you have described, as coming down to the eye to the mouth? Were they flesh wounds, or through the bone?
A. The first one was a flesh wound, and just entered the skull.
Q. Which do you mean by the first one?
A. The one that began at the left angle of the nose. Then the third, I think it was, that is, commencing at the left and going outwards, was the one that took this piece out here.
Q. Where?
A. At the forehead, and cut the cheek bone in two, and also left an indentation in the skull.
Q. Was that the one that cut the eye ball?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That made an indentation of the skull, but did not go through the skull?
A. No Sir. Those on the side of the head, practically all of them, went through the skull.
Q. Into the brain?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you find any other wounds on him anywhere?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you then, or at any time, make an examination of his vital organs?
A. One week later I did, yes sir.
Q. Did you examine all his vital organs then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you find any other cause of death?
A. No Sir.
Q. I might as well ask it now, as any time, it may be an absurd question too, in an ordinary point of view; what did you find to be the cause of death.
A. Shock.
Q. That you use in the medical sense?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What do you mean by that? Perhaps your Honor understands what that means.
A. (Court) Yes; shock from the wounds, as I understand it, Mr. Attorney.
Q. Shock from those wounds?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was the condition of the body or head as to blood?
A. The side of the face and the side of the head, of course, were covered with blood.
Q. The side where the wounds were?
A. Yes Sir, but not clotted blood.

Page 93
Q. All these wounds were on which side of the head?
A. On the left side.
Q. There were no wounds on the right side of the face?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was the side that was turned up?
A. Yes.
Q. The head was towards the east or west end of the sofa?
A. Towards the west end, the parlor door.
Q. One side of his face was resting on the sofa?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was which side?
A. The right side.
Q. As it would be if his back was to the wall?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What sort of a sofa was it?
A. An old fashioned sofa.
Q. An arm at each end?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Not one of these modern lounges?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was the head up on the arm of the sofa?
A. No Sir, it was in the angle between the top of the head of the lounge and the lounge itself, that is, the middle of an angle, about the middle of a line drawn.
Q. What did you say the condition of the blood that was on him was, clotted?
A. No Sir, it was not clotted.
Q. You told what time you were there?
A. Yes, about 11.45.
Q. Was the body cold?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was it of natural heat of life?
A. To the feel, it was, yes sir. I did not take the temperature.
Q. Was the blood still flowing?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. From what?
A. It was flowing— oozing would be probably the better term, from the wounds on the face and the head.
Q. From all of them?
A. They were all bathed; it would be difficult to tell which one in particular.
Q. What, if any blood was there on his clothing?
A. There was very little blood on his clothing, except on his bosom, his shirt bosom, and of course the back where the blood ran down, that is, the back of his cardigan, and his clothes were soaked, where it had run down from his face to the lounge, as it lay on the lounge.
Q. Where was the principal flow of blood, on the lounge or on the floor?

Page 94
A. Through the lounge on to the floor, after going through the pillow and his coat.
Q. Can you give me any idea whether there was much or little blood on the floor when you got there?
A. There was not a great deal on the floor. It was dropping when I was there, dropping from the lounge in two places on to the carpet.
Q. Under the sofa?
A. Yes Sir, from the head of the sofa it was dripping down on to the carpet.
Q. Not on the side, but underneath?
A. Yes, it was under, near the back wall.
Q. Now what was your opinion as to the length of time —- Was he dead? Of course he was.
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was the length of time that he had been dead?
(Mr. Jennings.) His opinion formed at this time?
Q. Either then, or from any subsequent examination, or from all you have examined in the case?
A. I do not think he could have been dead over half an hour.
Q. Did you then, or afterwards, or at any time, find any other blood in that room, or near it, that you can tell about now?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Tell all you found.
A. Taking first the wall behind the sofa, there were in one cluster of spots, as it were, radiating,
describing the arc of a circle, there were seventy eight blood spots.
Q. Where were they?
A. Those were immediately behind his head going and dropping towards the east on the wall.
Q. Above the sofa?
A. Yes.
Q. How far above?
A. I can tell by looking at my notes.
Q. Certainly. I guess they have got over objecting to that. When did you make the notes?
A. I took the notes I could not tell you what day, but not the same day.
Q. Did you take them right from the examination?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Are those the original notes you took?
A. Yes Sir. I said seventy eight; I believe there were eighty six spots. The highest of those of that particular cluster I think were three feet seven inches from the floor.
Q. Now describe where they were, Doctor.
A. They were over the back of the lounge eighty six of them, in one cluster, as I say, describing the arc
of a circle from the west, east, that is, from the parlor door towards the kitchen door.
Page 95

Q. Beginning how far from where his head was, as you found it?
A. I do not think I took that.
Q. Estimate it?
A. I should say not over three or four inches east of his head.
Q. That is, beginning within three or four inches of his head and describing a semi circle?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Eighty six in all?
A. Yes Sir, in one cluster.
Q. How large?
A. Some very minute, some the size of a pin head, others were the size of a pea, and varying from that.
Those will probably illustrate the two limits.
Q. That is on the wall paper?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What else?
A. I then found on the paper above the head of the lounge, the highest spot except one upon the ceiling; that was six feet one and three-quarters inches from the floor.
Q. Tell that again.
A. The highest spot on the north wall was six feet one inch and three-quarters; that was the highest spot on that wall.
Q. What position was that with reference to the head, above it?
A. Yes, and a little to the back, if any.
Q. A little to the east or west?
A. A little to the west of the head. There were two of them. There was a quarter of an inch difference. The lower one, the one immediately lower than that, was six feet one inch and a half. I take notice of
those two, because there were two of the largest spots to be found.
Q. The lower one was what?
A. Six feet an inch and a half from the floor.
Q. How large were those spots?
A. Those spots I did not exactly measure them, but they must have been half an inch in their longest axis by quarter of an inch in width.
Q. Were there any other spots in the immediate neighborhood of them?
A. Further along towards the east on this picture, a picture framed and suspended above the sofa —
Q. Towards the man’s feet?
A. Yes Sir. On that picture and frame were in all forty spots. The highest spot there was fifty eight inches from the floor.
Q. How were those distributed, with any sort of regularity?
A. No Sir. They were more as though shooting directly upward, that is, diagonally from the head.
Page 96
Q. That is, towards the east, towards the feet?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What else?
A. On the moulding around the mop board that goes around the walls there were five spots.
Q. Where?
A. Five spots that is, on the moulding that is behind the lounge. The first one was seven and a half inches east of the door jamb, east of the east side of the door jamb. The next was seven and three quarters inches.
Q. Were they behind the lounge?
A. Yes.
Q. You could not see them until you took the lounge away?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did that lounge have a back?
A. It was taken back for the purposes of measurement.
Q. It was a lounge that had a back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The back of the lounge was between these spots and where the man was, where the head was?
A. Yes Sir, that is right.
Q. How near the floor were they?
A. I think from the base of the mop board to the top of the moulding was seven and three-quarter inches.
Q. How far from the floor?
A. On top of the moulding.
Q. Similar in their character to the rest of the spots?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What else did you find in the shape of blood there?
A. I found the carpet underneath the head of the lounge in two spots, two pools there of blood. I found on the parlor door west of the head of the lounge about seven drops, that is on the door and on the jamb.
Q. That is the door that goes from the sitting room into the parlor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How far is that from the head?
A. I think about five feet. I did not measure it accurately.
Q. Seven spots?
A. Yes Sir; one very large one in the center division of the upper two panels of the door.
Q. How far from the floor should you estimate it?
A. Between five and six feet.
Q. How large was that?
A. The top one was quite a large one.
Q. What do you mean by “quite large”?
A. Taking the one I told you above the lounge as the biggest one,

Page 97
about half an inch in length, this would be about two-thirds the size of that.
Q. What other spots?
A. We saw two spots upon the ceiling immediately above, not exactly above the head of the lounge. I do not think it was human blood; I think it was some insect that had been killed there. There was another spot Mr. Jennings and myself saw that was in all probability human. That would be from the head westward about a foot or eighteen inches westward on the ceiling.
Q. Any others that you found?
A. I found one on the west door, the jamb of the door leading from the sitting room into the dining room.
Q. In what room?
A. That would be in the dining room.
Q. How near the floor was that?
A. I did not measure it. I should judge from twelve to fourteen inches.
Q. How large a spot was that?
A. It was not a spot, it was a string, as it were, of blood. Instead of being a spot of blood, that was long, it would probably measure, if drawn out, two inches or two and a half inches.
Q. Was it a spatter or not?
A. A spatter, yes sir.
Q. On the dining room side?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. If it were drawn out, what was the shape of it?
A. Where the dining room door opens, that is, as you go from the sitting room into the dining room, the door opens to the east, therefore the jamb where the door shuts in would be on the west side of the door. Taking it where the door fits into that niche, I do not know the technical term for it, beginning there, and then stringing from there on the inside downward. It was higher where the door closes than it was on the
inside of the dining room.
Q. The plan shows another spot you have not described on the door to the kitchen?
A. Oh, yes sir, there were two spots. I have not got that note. If I remember correctly, I think one was three feet one inch from the floor in the groove of the division of the door. There was another one about six inches from the floor on the door proper, about quarter of an inch from the casing of the door.
Q. How large were those spots?
A. The one in the groove was a medium spot. I could not give you the measurement.
Q. Give me an idea? As big as a marble?
A. Oh, no, near a pea; it was probably the size of a huckleberry, a small huckleberry.

Page 98
Q. That depends upon the size, and the number of pickers. As big as a pea?
A. No Sir, not as large as a pea, I qualified that.
Q. Is that all you remember of down stairs.
A. That is all I can remember of at present.
Q. How did the spot on the sitting room door which you called a string, differ from the other spots which you found?
A. All the others were spots, were real spots, you could tell from the way they struck. They drew down just as a spot of water on a piece of paper would do where it struck. It made a larger spot and pressed downward and made a neck. The other one there was a line, without much width.
Q. How could that be made, the one on the dining room casing?
A. It could be made by swinging from an instrument used in murdering Mr. Borden.
Q. What were the character of these wounds on Mr. Borden’s face?
A. Incised, sharp wounds, made by a sharp instrument.
Q. Taking all you have observed of the character of the wounds, the size of them, and position of them, did you form any opinion as to what sort of an instrument the wounds were made with?
Q. I should say it was done with a hatchet or a small ax.
A. Why?
A. Because the wounds were sharp, necessitating a sharp cutting surface. They were long, some of them four and a half inches. And the force required in breaking the skull, which was a crushing blow would necessitate something that would give you leverage, that is a handle.
Q. What is the thickness of the skull, what is the strength of the skull, at the place where this crushing blow was given?
A. It is about the weakest part of the skull.
(Mr. Adams.) That does not answer the question. I object to that.
Q. I wanted to know its strength relatively to the other parts of the skull. What is the thickness of the skull there?
A. I could not give it to you in exact figures; I do not believe it is over one-twelfth part of an inch.
Q. At that place?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I mean on a person of the age of Mr. Borden.
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And his head. It is of course difficult for you to give, I do not know as you can give in words, but what I want to get at is what relative degree of force is required to crush the skull at that place, if you can give me any idea.
(Mr. Jennings.) I do not know that he is an expert.
(Mr. Knowlton.) I offer him as an expert on that question.
Page 99
(Court.) It would depend I suppose upon the instrument that was used.
Q. With a hatchet, as to the relative amount of force, whether it was beyond the limit of human strength or not?
(Mr. Jennings.) Nothing has been disclosed as yet that shows he is competent to pass upon a question of that kind. I do not understand it can be asked him unless he is an expert on a question of that kind, unless he has made some experiments.
(Court.) You can ascertain by asking those questions.
(Mr. Jennings.) It is for him to qualify his expert first. I do not object to his testifying about the matters that come within the scope of a surgeon.
(Court.) If the witness has any idea how much force would have to be used, taking into account always the weight and character of the instrument, he may answer the question. I do not see any objection to the witness answering it so far as he is able.
Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) Have you ever made any experiments at any time as to the degree of force it takes to crush the skull of a man?
A. No Sir.
Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) Never in your life?
A. No Sir.
Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) Have you ever made any study of it?
A. I have studied it in the usual way which comes to a physician to measure the degree of force it takes to fracture, the force in the living. To take a human skull, to see how much force it would take to break it, I have never done it.
Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) Not with any kind of instrument?
A. No Sir.
Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) You have never had any experience in a matter of that kind that enables you to base your judgment upon the degree of force that it would take?
A. The skull is bone, we know about the degree of force it takes to break a bone, we know the thickness of the skull at a certain point, and I do not think it requires any previous trying or experimenting to know about how much force it takes.
Q. (Mr. Jennings.) Irrespective of the weapon used?
A. In my answer I was going to designate what in my opinion a hatchet of a certain weight would do. A hatchet of a certain weight that would break the skull at the point where this was fractured and broken would not break it at another part. In other words, a person falling from a height and striking on the top of his head, does not generally break the top of the head, but breaks the base of the skull, where the force is directed; because the top of the skull is so much thicker than the base.
Page 100
Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) Is there anything in your experience that enables you to estimate the degree of force that would be required to break the skull at the point indicated in the question?
A. If you mean by that I have made an expert study of how many pounds of how much force it would take, no sir, I have not.
(Court.) The question may be asked, and the Doctor may answer so far as he is able to. I do not see how a living man can answer the question correctly without all the circumstances attending it and surrounding the question.
A. I think a person, with a hatchet four or five pounds, I do not mean a robust person, but an ordinary individual, could very easily cause the fractures that were found in the skull.
(Mr. Adams.) I object to the answer as not responsive.
Q. (Question read.) It is of course difficult for you to give, I do not know as you can give in words, but what I want to get at is what relative degree of force is required to crush the skull at that place, if you can give me any idea.
(Court.) I think he may answer.
(Mr. Knowlton.) I submit that he has.
(Mr. Adams.) The witness has already answered; we were trying to object. Under your Honor’s ruling, the witness was limited to this, what sort of force with the instrument designated is necessary to be applied to the human skull over the ear to fracture it; I believe that in substance is the inquiry. The answer is not an answer, but is an illustration which leaves us entirely at sea. An ordinarily healthy person might do it. I think it means this, a force characterizing the blow, whether a heavy blow or a light blow, a blow indirect or a blow direct; but to say that an ordinarily healthy person, who may be strong in his legs or weak in his arms, or vice versa, furnishes no help. This is the first time I have had the experience of having to fight an answer given in that way. I do not find any fault with your Honor’s ruling at to the question put to the expert, to give an opinion upon, but my objection goes to the answer, as not being an answer responsive to the question. That is not an answer to the question which is intended by the question itself as fairly to follow.
(Court.) Having heard the question as read by Miss White from the record, if you can give any full or specific answer, you may do so.
A. I think to give an answer as explicit as the defense asked for, I think it would be necessary to turn murderers; I do not see any other possible way of doing so.
(Mr. Adams.) I pray that answer may be excluded, that is not responsive to the question. I think a suggestion from the Court that he should answer the question would be the proper thing now.
(Court.) Answer as near as you can.
(Mr. Knowlton.) I do not understand that answer is yet excluded.

Page 101
(Court.) Not if it is an answer.
A. I said a person, not necessarily robust, I said an ordinary person in good health could do it. If you wish to eliminate this particular case, if you wish to say what degree of force it would require to kill a person, or to break a skull without the intention of killing, you can measure the degree then by saying a person of that character that I have said, a person in ordinary health, not necessarily robust, could with using moderate force, not their full force, or their entire force, but using moderate force, could break a skull.
Q. With a four or five pound hatchet?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Adams.) He has not answered your Honor’s question yet.
(Court.) I will be content with the answer given, so far as the Court understands it.
Q. (By Mr. Knowlton.) What was his age, as near as you could tell?
A. Seventy years.
Q. What was his physical condition?
A. He was in excellent physical condition.
Q. What weight and height?
A. I forget his height, five feet nine I think, I wont be positive about that.
Q. And weight?
A. I do not know his weight.
Q. Estimate it; a thin or stout man?
A. No, he was medium, what we call a man of medium figure, tall with medium figure.
Q. Was the body of the woman lying on its face when you first saw it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In the place where you described on the floor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. As you saw it, without turning it over, what was the appearance of it?
A. You could not see any part of the face. The arms were thrown, as it were, prone around the face. All that was exposed was the right half of the back of the head.
Q. As the body lay there could you see any wounds?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What wound could you see as the body lay there?
A. As the body lay there you could see, getting down closely, you could see there were a number of wounds, by close examination. Introducing your finger you found those wounds, at least seven or eight of them, went through the bone into the skull, that is into the brain.
Q. I wont trouble you any more with that part of the inquiry. What did you do then, did you turn the body over?
Page 102
A. Yes Sir, I turned the body up so to get to the light to count the wounds better.
Q. What did you find to be the condition, and number, and character, and size of the wounds on her?
A. There were altogether on her head eighteen distinct wounds. All but four of them upon the right side.
Q. The right side of what?
A. Of the medial line of the head.
Q. What part of the head were they on?
A. You can imagine a line drawn from the middle of the neck to the front, and then up back again, and down; in that square you will get about fourteen of the wounds.
Q. Drawn from the middle of the nape of the neck around on top of the ear?
A. Yes in front of the ear.
Q. Clear around to the top of the nose?
A. No Sir up to here, about an inch in front of the right eye.
Q. Then up to the top of the head?
A. Yes Sir, then posterior, to the starting point.
Q. Fourteen were in there?
A. Yes Sir, and four outside.
Q. Describe those wounds as well as you can.
A. I cannot exactly remember the length of them. There was one about five inches long; and they were pretty near all parallel with each other.
Q. What was their direction?
A. As the head lay, the right side up, and the back of the head up, the wounds were from the left side downward and backward to the right side. In other words, they started here, as it were, and went down this way, from the left they went backward and downward to the right.
(Mr. Jennings.) Which, the fourteen of them?
A. All of them.
Q. Their general direction then, if I understand you, was not from front to back, but from side to side?
A. Not directly from side to side.
Q. Half way?
A. Yes, diagonally, you might say across.
Q. The part of the wound, take one single wound, the part of the wound that was nearest the top of the head, farthest front, was the farthest towards the forehead?
A. Yes, the starting of the wound towards the front of the head.
Q. The end of the wound, towards the top of the head would be the farthest towards the front, on the diagonal?
A. Yes.
Q. That was the general course of all found in that locality?
A. Yes Sir.

Page 103
Q. How deep were they?
A. About seven or eight, so far as I can remember, probably six, probably one or two more, went through the skull, crushing it before it, and went into the brain. Others marked the skull; some took a little piece of the bone out; seven or eight went right through into the brain, carrying the bone with them.
Q. Where were the other four?
A. On the left side of the head, the left of the medial line, of the same nature and countour as the others.
Q. What was the character of them?
A. The same nature exactly. The remarkable thing about those on the left, none of those went through the skull.
Q. Only those on the right?
A. Yes Sir. I should say also, on the left side, without any mark on the skull, was a flat scalp wound, a wound about one and a half inches wide, and two to three inches long, flapped backwards immediately over the left ear.
Q. Any wounds on the face?
A. On the bridge of the nose there was, what we call a contusion, that is, a black mark, and two over the right eye, and one a little to the left of the left eye— I forget which— the left eye I think they were over.
Q. Only contusions there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were they such as might be made by falling?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were there any other wounds on her you found then, or afterwards?
A. There was one wound on the back I found afterwards, not at that time.
Q. Where did you fine that?
A. The lower end of the wound was immediately over the spine, about four inches below the juncture of the neck and the body. That then ran forwards, and to the left two and a half inches long.
Q. How deep?
A. Two and a half inches deep.
Q. Cut through to the spine?
A. It did not touch the bone, because it did not go down the full length of the blade; it made a conical wound.
Q. What was the character of these wounds, as to whether they were incised or not?
A. Yes Sir, they were.
Q. As though made by a sharp cutting instrument?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In you opinion, what could have caused the wounds you saw on her?
A. I should say a hatchet or a small ax.
Q. What did you find in the nature of blood there, first on her?
A. Under her head, and pretty well down on her breast, she was lying in a pool of clotted blood, quite dark, as if it had been there sometime. It was not in the fluid condition that Mr. Borden’s was.

Page 104
Q. What blood was there, if any, on her clothing?
A. The front of the clothing was very much soaked, that is, down to the chest, and also the back, down about half way, of course going right through to her underclothing.
Q. What blood did you find in the room beside that on her clothing and on the carpet immediately under her?
A. On the pillow sham immediately above, about a foot or eighteen inches in front were about three spots. On the rail of the bed I should judge there would be from thirty to forty, probably fifty spots of blood.
Q. In what direction were those spots from the head as you found them?
A. Those on the shams were forward ones, about a foot or eighteen inches on the sham. The direction was forward from the head.
(Mr. Adams.) Nearer the wall?
A. Yes Sir, on the pillow sham.
Q. She was lying on the floor with her head towards the east wall?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How far from the east wall was her head?
A. Probably four or five feet — four feet.
Q. Those were on the pillow shams some eighteen inches nearer the wall than her head?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And the distance from her head?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was the direction of those on the wall?
A. They were lateral first; they were direct, as if spattered directly against it. On the drawers of the dressing case, I presume they were swelled and could not be put in their whole length, on the projection of them, on the uppermost drawer, there were three or four spots. I think on the second one there were six or seven spots, quite large ones, as if they had gone up in the air and had fallen down.
Q. Any others?
A. On the moulding, the piece of moulding east of the north window, that is the moulding that caps the mop board, about five or six inches from the casing, there was a spot of blood.
Q. On the casing?
A. On the moulding that caps the mop board. Above that, about two feet, there was a spot on the paper.
Q. How far would those spots be from the head as you found it?
A. From the head they would be between six and seven feet at an angle, that is, the dressing case formed an angle, the body lying here, the spots were over there.
Q. There was no straight line between the spots and where the head was found?
A. There was a straight line, but the dressing case intervened.
Page 105
Q. No interrupted straight line?
A. No Sir.
Q. The spots could not have gone from the body where you found it to that place?
A. I should not think so, no sir.
Q. What other spots did you find, any on the window itself?
A. No Sir I did not. I found on the east wall, that is up against the head of the bed, where the head of the bed was, I found three or four spots there on the wall, and some on the moulding of the mop board.
Q. From what you saw, and all you saw, did you form any opinion as to how long she had been dead when you found her?
A. I could not say exactly how long she had been dead, but it was my impression she was dead
anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half when I saw her. Her bodily warmth externally was not near as marked as that of Mr. Borden.
Q. How soon after you saw Mr. Borden’s body did you see hers?
A. Within two or three minutes. I just saw Mr. Borden, and was told Mrs. Borden was up stairs. I just glanced at him, and went up stairs, and saw her, and came down, and continued my examination.
Q. That was about quarter of twelve?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was there anything inconsistent in what you found with Mrs. Borden’s having been dead two hours, when you found her?
(Objected to.)
(Court.) If the Doctor has the means of telling, he may tell.
(Mr. Jennings.) He has already answered.
Q. Was there anything you found in the appearance of the body, or the blood, or the warmth of it, that was in your opinion inconsistent with an assumed fact that she had been dead two hours?
(Objected to.)
(Mr. Knowlton.) I have put it in nearly every murder case I have ever tried.
(Court.) If the Doctor can answer that exact question, understanding what it is, he may do so. (To the witness,) You may answer the question if you understand it.
A. No Sir, I do not see anything inconsistent with it, I did not, at least.
Q. What was, so far as you could see, her age?
A. I should judge a woman between fifty four and fifty five.
Q. What was her size, height and weight?
A. She was I think five feet four, if I remember correctly. I could tell from my autopsy records.
Q. You can refer to them if you like.
A. The autopsy?

Page 106
Q. Anything that will give you the height I should like to have you refer to.
A. (After referring to notes.) Five feet three inches.
Q. I suppose you dont make a record of weight, because you do not get it?
A. No Sir. She was very heavy though, I should say from two hundred and ten to two hundred and twenty five pounds.
Q. Did you examine her vital organs also?
A. Yes.
Q. With a view to ascertaining any other cause of death?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In your opinion what was the cause of her death?
A. Shock from these wounds.
Q. As you have described them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where these wounds crushed the skull, what is the thickness of the skull there?
A. That borders, in fact runs into, the very same place where Mr. Borden was crushed.
Q. That you have described, as to him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Perhaps that will answer the question then.
A. That is, they commenced more posteriolly, but they wind up at the same position.
Q. How is it more posteriolly, thicker or otherwise?
A. Thicker.
Q. Did you see anything else there, that I have not called your attention to at that time? Did you remove her stomach?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then?
A. Yes Sir that afternoon.
Q. What did you do with that?
A. I put that in an air tight jar, and sealed it up, and also sent that to Prof. Wood.
Q. By express?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see then, or at any other time, any hatchet or axes there?
A. No Sir, down cellar.
Q. When did you first see anything of that kind?
A. Almost immediately after I got there.
Q. Where did you see it, or them?
A. I saw them lying, as we went down the cellar stairs, lying to the left hand up against the partition.
Q. What?
A. I think four, one hatchet, that is a large hatchet with a claw,

Page 107
a very peculiar one, hard to describe, the head of the claw turned under it; it was not an ordinary hatchet at all.
Q. A claw like a hammer claw do you mean?
A. Yes, in fact the head was a hammer claw; that is a good way of putting it.
Q. What else besides that?
A. I think three other axes, ordinary wood axes.
Q. Where were they?
A. Lying up against the partition, or dividing wall in the cellar at the left hand as you went down stairs, about six or eight feet from the stairs.
Q. Was that a light cellar?
A. Yes Sir, quite light; windows open all around it.
Q. Was it that room you go into when you go down stairs first?
A. An ordinary room there which the rooms open from; you go into an open space.
Q. What did you do with the hatchet and those axes?
A. I did not take them myself. I examined two of them, they were brought to me, one of the officers brought them to me when I was in the wash house in the rear of the building.
Q. Which two did you examine?
A. The hatchet, and one of the axes. The hatchet, as I made the remark, then looked —
(Objected to.)
Q. What did it look like?
A. It looked as if it had been scraped, or washed, as it were, more of a scraping then washing. I would not swear that was the fact, but that is the way it appeared to me.
Q. That was the hatchet?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. On the blade or handle?
A. On the blade.
Q. How large a hatchet was that?
A. I think it had a cutting surface of about five inches, possibly more.
Q. How much would that hatchet weigh?
A. That hatchet. I think weighed from three to five pounds.
Q. Did you afterwards take it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you afterwards do with it?
A. No Sir, I did not take it; the officer took it.
Q. Did you see it in the possession of the officers?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Which officer did you see it in the possession of?
A. The marshal.
Q. Did you afterwards do anything with it yourself?
Page 108
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do with it?
A. I examined it with a glass, and saw two hairs on it, and some spots that looked like blood, yet I would not sat they were blood, or were not.
Q. On the blade or handle?
A. On both.
Q. What did you do with it then?
A. I sent it, or gave it into the possession of Prof. Wood.
Q. Did you do anything with either of the axes?
A. Yes sir; there was what appeared to be blood on all of them, that is, it looked like blood under an ordinary glass.
(Mr. Jennings.) On the axes?
A. Yes sir, but I would not say that it was blood.
Q. Did you then, or at any time, take any clothing from there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I am not now talking of the clothing of the dead people.
A. No Sir.
Q. What did you take?
A. I took a dress skirt, that is an ordinary dress skirt, and took a white skirt, an under white skirt.
(Mr. Adams.) What?
A. A white underskirt.
Q. Other than the dress?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who gave them to you?
A. I think Mr. Jennings, I would not be positive. Mr. Jennings was there at the time, we told him to ask Miss Lizzie for them.
Q. What did you do with them?
A. I gave those also to Prof. Wood.
(Afternoon.)
Q. Did you take any other article of clothing?
A. Not personally.
Q. Did you receive any from anybody else?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What?
A. I received the shoes and stockings.
Q. Who gave them to you?
A. The City Marshal.
Q. What did you do with them?
A. I gave them to the City Marshal to give to Prof. Wood, and got a receipt from Prof. Wood that he had given them to him.
Page 109
Q. Did you know anything about cutting off the jamb of the door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see that done?
A. I did not see it done, no sir.
Q. Was it done under your directions?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was the piece given to you?
A. No Sir it was given to the marshal.
Q. Did you receive it from the marshal?
A. No Sir, it is in his custody downstairs.
Q. Doctor, how soon would anyone of these crushing blows, I use the word you used, and by that I mean blows that crushed the skull, how soon would any one of those cause death?
A. I should say instantly.
Q. Perhaps I ought to ask in logical order first whether any of those would cause death?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Either one of them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. By instantly, what do you mean, that has a medical meaning? Do you mean instantly?
A. Yes Sir, I mean instantly.
Q. That is, no apparent length of time between the blow and the death?
A. No Sir.
Q. Supposing a blow of that kind was struck, and not only crushed the skull, but knocked the person over, would death ensue before or after he reached the ground?
A. I think either of those blows struck with a person standing, when he reached the floor, he would be dead; I think either one of them.
Q. When death happens, what becomes of the action of the heart?
A. It ceases.
Q. How soon then would the heart cease to act after one of those crushing blows was struck, assuming the person was not dead when the blow was struck?
A. I think it would stop instantly.
Q. Does that have any effect, the stopping of the action of the heart, upon the spattering or spurting or spraying of blood from wounds?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What?
A. It stops it.
Q. Does it stop the flow of blood?
A. Not necessarily, no sir.

Page 110
Q. What causes the flow of blood?
A. Simply because there is a flow of blood there, and there is a necessity for it.
Q. There would be a pool on the floor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The stopping of the action of the heart stops the spurting?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you ever have any talk with the defendant, Lizzie Borden, at any time?
A. Yes Sir, I had a few words with her.
Q. Did you see her when you went there to take the view?
A. Yes Sir,
Q. Did you have any talk with her then?
A. I do not recollect whether I had anything to say with her when I went in or not.
Q. Where was she?
A. In the dining room.
Q. What doing?
A. Sort of reclining on the lounge, Mrs. Churchill was with her and Miss Russell. I saw her then pass out the door, and go up stairs.
Q. When was it you had any talk with her, if you can remember?
A. When she was sitting in her room up stairs.
Q. That same day?
A. Yes Sir,
Q. What time of day?
A. I should judge it must have (been) quarter to one or half past one.
Q. What was it?
A. I asked her if her mother had received this note; she said she had. I asked her if she had seen the note; and she said no. I asked her if she knew who brought it; she said she did not know and thought it was a boy. I asked her what her mother did with the note; she said she did not know; in all probabilityshe burned it in the kitchen stove.
Q. That is all?
A. That is all I can remember.
Q. When you mentioned one-twelfth of an inch as the thickness of the skull at the point where you described, did you mean that for the average skull, or this skull in particular?
A. I was speaking at the time of Mr. Borden’s skull.

Page 111
CROSS EXAMINATION

Q. (By Mr. Adams.) I understood you to say you had been medical examiner a year?
A. Yes Sir, about.
Q. Had you any particular experience in surgery before that time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is, do you make the department of surgery your specialty?
A. I do not exactly make it a specialty, but I do considerable in that line.
Q. You do not claim to do any more surgery than any other sort of practice? You do the general
physician’s practice?
A. General physician yes.
Q. Such things as you did in this case, you did as Medical Examiner?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Your duties in that direction, as you understand it, are derived from the Statute?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. As a Medical Examiner have you ever had an autopsy in a homicide case before?
A. I do not know whether you would call it a homicide, there was a case here —
Q. Whether since you were Medical Examiner you have had a case of homicide before?
A. I would say yes.
Q. How many?
A. One.
Q. What one was that?
A. Do you mean the name?
Q. Yes, for the purpose of identification.
A. It was on the body of a woman named Catherine O’Conner.
Q. What was the cause of her death?
A. Concussion of the brain.
Q. Due to what, in your opinion?
A. Due to beating by her husband.
(Mr. Knowlton.) Has that case been tried?
A. He has been convicted yes sir.
Q. You spoke of repairing to this house the 4th of August at a certain hour?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that a pleasant day?
A. It surely was not a rainy day.
Q. Was it a very hot day?
A. It was sir.
Q. Whenever you went there, the sun was about meridian?
A. Yes Sir.

Page 112
Q. Where were you when you got any information from anybody as to the occurrances at this house?
A. In front of Andrew Borden’s house.
Q. Was that the first you heard of it, there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you get any information causing you to go there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where had you been when you came to that spot?
A. Been to my office.
Q. You were on your way where?
A. I was on my way then from making a call. I made a call in between being at my office and coming to that place.
Q. You left your office at what time?
A. I should think half past eleven.
Q. And were you driving?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did you drive to?
A. I drove to a house on Fourth Street, I think No, 86, I think that was the call, Fourth Street.
Q. Did you get out and go in?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Stayed there about how long?
A. Five to seven minutes.
Q. Then driving from there to this place?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then in consequence of what somebody said to you, you went into the house?
A. In consequence of what I asked, I was driving by, and saw —
Q. I did not ask you that. You have answered me, and I will accept it. It was in consequence of what you asked that you went into the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What door did you go into?
A. The door on the north side of the house, towards the rear.
Q. That is what we call the door that leads into the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir, into the hall first.
Q. You call that passage way a hall?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. At all events it is in the rear of the house, and towards the barn?
A. It is not exactly in the rear; it is towards the end of the house.
Q. It is towards the rear of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now when you went in that way, what room did that bring you into?
Page 113
A. What did what bring me into?
Q. That entry way or hall?
A. That brought me into the kitchen.
Q. Who was in the kitchen when you went there?
A. Bridget Sullivan and Dr. Bowen. Dr. Bowen met me just as I went in.
Q. Dr. Bowen met you coming from what direction?
A. He was coming from the sitting room.
Q. The sitting room was the room in which you found Mr. Borden lying?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went into the sitting room out of the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That brought you where Mr. Borden was lying upon this sofa, which I understand it is an ordinary hair cloth sofa, having two arms one at each end, and both alike?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That brought Mr. Borden so that he faced you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who were in that sitting room at that time?
A. Officers, Mullaly and Doherty.
Q. Who else?
A. I do not remember.
Q. Did you find Dr. Bowen there?
A. I left him in the kitchen.
Q. Did he follow you into the sitting room?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. What did you do then and there?
A. I took down the corner of the sheet and saw the face of Mr. Borden. I asked where Mrs. Borden was; I was informed she was up stairs. I went up and saw her.
Q. You did not then do anything to Mr. Borden, except what you have stated?
A. No Sir.
Q. When you went up stairs you went up the front way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Are those winding stairs?
A. They are to a certain extent; not very winding.
Q. I did not ask you that, did I?
A. You asked if they were winding stairs; they were to a certain extent.
Q. What was the carpet, if any, on the floor?
A. Where?
Q. In the hall and on the stairs.
A. I should say Brussels.

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Q. What was its color, as to being light or dark?
A. I do not think it was either very light or dark, I considered it medium. I think it was figured, I am not positive.
Q. Do you remember whether the wall was papersed in the hall?
A. I think they were.
Q. If they were, what were they papered with?
A. Paper.
Q. What sort of paper? When I asked you what they were papersed with, did you understand me, or did you desire to create a laugh?
A. I thought you wanted to know whether they were papered with paper.
Q. Did you think I meant putting on cloth?
A. I do not know what you meant. You were so explicit with your terms I thought I would be with mine.
Q. Were they papered with plain or figured paper?
A. I do not know.
Q. When you got up stairs, which room did you go into?
A. Into the guest room, that is the chamber on the north west corner.
Q. Without reference to the points of the compass, was it on the front of the house, up one flight?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Over the room commonly called the parlor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In your opinion is it about the same size as the parlor?
A. I should judge just the same size.
Q. How did you get into that room?
A. From the door going from the entry.
Q. Did that door meet you when you got to the head of the stairs, or did you turn around?
A. Turned a little to the left.
Q. And walked along the hall or entry way up there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That brought you to the door way named; looking into that room, from the door, would the front windows of that room be on your left hand?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And this one window that you speak of which was near the bureau would be opposite you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Would the bureau be on the further side of the room?
A. That would be opposite me also.
Q. I have asked you to imagine yourself standing in the doorway?
A. Yes.
Q. Between you and the bureau would be what, if anything?
A. The bedstead.
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Q. How was the bedstead standing?
A. It was running east to west.
Q. Would that be parallel with the bureau?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Would that bring the head of the bed to the wall of the room opposite the front of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was this, in your opinion, an ordinary full sized bed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did it have its white bed spread and white pillows upon it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who, if anybody, was in that room at that time?
A. That, I cant remember. When I went in, I do not know really that there was anybody there; I do not say whether there was, or was not anybody.
Q. When you got information about Mrs. Borden, is it your recollection it was brought to you by somebody coming down stairs?
A. Dr. Bowen gave me my information.
Q. I did not ask you who, but you have answered me properly enough; did he go up stairs with you?
A. That I could not say.
Q. Did anybody go up stairs with you?
A. I do not think they did.
Q. Did anybody go into the room about the same time that you did?
A. I think there were two or three went in.
Q. Do you know who they were?
A. No Sir.
Q. Would you say Dr. Bowen was there at or about the same time you were there?
A. Dr. Bowen was in the room with me afterwards.
Q. Do you mean practically at the same time?
A. Yes, within five or ten minutes.
Q. I should like to know whether you now refer to the first time you went into that room, and while you were there for the first time, that Dr. Bowen was then some time present?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is the fact you mean to have me understand?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was anybody else present, so far as you recollect, in that room up stairs where you found Mrs. Borden at this first visit?
A. I would not say positively.
Q. Give me, if you please, the best of your recollection about that.
A. Dr, Tourtellotte and Dr. Hardy were both there with me, as we were examining the wounds, and it is my impression that it was at that time.
Q. I asked you a moment ago to state to me the position of things in that room, imagining yourself standing at the door; going forward

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now into that room, where were you when you first got a glimpse of her body?
A. I would not be certain, but what I got a glimpse of her feet before I went into the room.
Q. Have you answered the question as well as you can?
A. Yes Sir; you asked me when I first got a glimpse of the body.
Q. No, I did not. After you went into the room, where were you when you first got a glimpse of the body; I think I did use that expression.
A. I think I was standing at the door, I think I saw her feet projecting from the bed.
Q. When from the doorway did you get a view of the rest of the general trunk of her body, where were you in the room?
A. I did not measure the distance, but it occurs to me that I got about half way the width of the bed.
Q. That brought you at the foot of the bed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then you could look across the bed, and see her lying there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She was lying with both hands under?
A. No Sir, more extended over the head, as it were, not over it, but around the head.
Q. This fashion, putting my hands in front of my face?
A. Yes but not resting on the arms; the head in a circle.
Q. In that fashion, with my hands being above the line of my face, and the hands being together?
A. I would not say they were together exactly.
Q. Approaching?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Her head was toward the same wall of the room that the head of the bed was?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was how near that wall?
A. I did not measure that.
Q. Give me your best opinion.
A. From three to four feet I should say, probably five; I think four would be nearer to it.
Q. Five feet do you mean to say?
A. Possibly. I said three to four would be nearer to it.
Q. You do not mean me to take five feet as a correct measurement of that distance?
A. No Sir, three to four.
Q. Do you see any distance in front of you, any width of a table, or anything that indicates to your eye now the same distance that her head was from that wall?
A. It was farther than the width of this table I think.

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Q. Are you willing to point out in front of you, taking your witness stand where your hands are as one point, the end of the other?
A. I should think possibly it would be from here to that screw where the board is screwed down.
Q. That is what you mean taking the rail of the witness stand?
A. No Sir, here.
Q. Taking one end of the shelf then that is nearest you, you think the distance of her head from the wall, which is the same wall the head of the bed was against is equivalent to that distance?
A. I should say about the same distance, yes.
Q. What was the distance between the face of the bureau drawer, or the dressing case, whatever it was, and the side of the bed nearest the bureau; in other words, what was the width of that space in which you saw her lie?
A. I think the space would be about the length of this board, the length of this shelf?
Q. Did you point out to the engineer when he was there the situation of things?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you intend at that time to have him see them practically as they were when you found these persons there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now you say in your opinion the width of the space where she lay is equivalent to the width of that whole shelf?
A. That would be a generous width.
Q. I want you to be just rather than generous.
A. Both are good qualities. I think that would be about the width; possibly six inches short of that.
Q. Did you hear the engineer say this morning it was two feet and ten inches that he measured there?
A. I do not recollect that I did.
Q. Is it your opinion that shelf is two feet and ten inches?
A. It is more.
Q. If it was two feet and ten inches it would be less than that shelf?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I am asking the space between the bureau and the frame of the bed; did you understand me to ask you that?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Mrs. Borden was a well nourished woman?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She was five feet three or four inches in height?
A. Three.
Q. Which is a good womanly height?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She weighed over two hundred pounds?
A. Yes Sir.

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Q. That made her then more than stout? A fat woman?
A. Yes, she was fat.
Q. Did she fill all that space pretty well, between the bureau and the bed?
A. No Sir.
Q. How much space on either side of her should you judge there was, between the bureau on the one hand and her, and the bed and her on the other hand?
A. I should think there would be a foot on either side, a foot between her and the bureau, and one between her and the bed.
Q. That would make her then exactly ten or eleven inches, the size of her trunk, the diameter of her trunk? Do you mean to have me understand that?
A. No Sir; that is taking the engineer’s figures, he is giving you definite figures; I am giving you what I thought, what my ideas were.
Q. If you will pardon me for taking you as an illustration, were her shoulders as broad as yours?
A. I could not tell the width of my shoulders.
Q. If you look in the glass you can tell something about it. Whether hers looked about the same.
A. I do not know. She was a very heavy woman.
(Mr. Knowlton.) Take me.
Q. Take my Brother Knowlton.
A. I was going to take him before he proffered his services.
Q. What about the general width of his shoulders as compared with hers, or her waist and size and hips?
A. They were very much about the one build,
Q. About one build?
A. I do not think Mr. Knowlton was as fleshy as she was.
Q. She was larger than Brother Knowlton then?
A. I said more fleshy.
Q. Do you mean by that larger, or weighed more?
A. If she was more fleshy, she must be larger.
Q. She was larger than Brother Knowlton then?
A. I should say so.
Q. If it be true that she had to go into a space that was two feet ten inches, then you would be in error in saying there was a foot on either hand? You do not mean me to understand you estimate my Brother Knowlton’s lateral diameter as ten inches from shoulder to shoulder?
A. I should say it was more than that.
Q. More than twenty is it not?
A. I should say it was.
Q. Now she was lying as you have answered me with reference to her hands, and on her face?
A. Yes Sir.

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Q. With her head turned so she was lying a little on her left side?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was it square on the left side or rather diagonally?
A. Diagonally I think.
Q. That left, as I understand you to say, the right side of the back of the head, and the right side of the
top of the head, fairly well exposed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That and a portion of the left side?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. This fairly must have been near twelve o’clock when you went up stairs, must it not?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. You know whether before you went there any person had disturbed or changed the position of the body, or any part of it?
A. It had not been changed.
Q. That is to say, you believe so?
A. I was told so by the one who saw it.
Q. Having said so much, although it is not competent, I will ask you who that was.
A. Dr. Bowen
Q. While Dr. Bowen was there with you, did you see him do anything to change the position of the body, or any part of it?
A. No Sir I did not.
Q. Did he, or you, or both of you, put your fingers or hands in these wounds, or any of them?
A. Yes Sir. I raised her up, with his assistance.
Q. Did you, either or both of you, put your hands or fingers into these wounds, or any of them?
A. I put my hands in; I do not know whether he did or not.
Q. Did yours get bloody?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know whether any blood dropped from your hands?
A. I am quite confident it did not.
Q. You say you are confident about it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Had you thought of it before?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see Dr. Bowen have any blood upon his hands?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you get any blood upon your clothing?
A. No Sir. I beg your pardon, I did get two or three spots on my pantaloons; I think it was down stairs though.
Q. Before you came up there?
A. I think so; I would not be positive about that.
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Q. I was going to ask you, that may help you to recollect, whether when down stairs the first time you came into the sitting room and saw Mr. Borden as you stated, you did anything in the way of examining the wounds with your fingers?
A. I do not think I did the first time.
Q. Before you went up stairs?
A. No Sir.
Q. Then it is your recollection that the first time you put your hands or fingers upon the wounds of either person, was that of Mrs. Borden up stairs, when you first saw her, I mean at that time, the precise instant when you first saw her.
A. I would not say that.
Q. What would you say?
A. I am not quite positive, but it occurs to me that I saw Mr. Borden first, and went up and saw Mrs. Borden, and then went down and made an examination of Mr. Borden.
Q. That is altogether different, is not it, from what you put it a few minutes ago?
A. Not at all.
Q. Then you went up stairs, and saw her, and did not touch the wounds or lift the body?
A. Not at that time.
Q. Then it was the second time you must have lifted her body?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You merely looked at her at that time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was Dr. Bowen with you at that time?
A. I told you I do not know.
Q. You know you have a fresh recollection this time; I do not mean to say your recollection is
changeable.
A. I cannot say wherein it is different from what I told you before.
Q. Perhaps I should not characterize it; it is for argument later, if it is worth argument. What we are trying to get at is this, whether the first time you went up stairs you did anything more than look at Mrs.
Borden?
A. I do not think I did.
Q. Did you not tell me five minutes ago at that time you put your fingers into her wounds?
A. I have no recollection of telling you anything of that kind, not specifying the time.
Q. I specified the time in my question, did you not understand it? Whether Dr. Bowen was there or not the first time you went up stairs, and looked at Mrs. Borden, and went down stairs, and then took this other view of Mr. Borden.
A. Yes Sir.
Q. At that time did you put your fingers or hands into his wounds,

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or any of them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did they become bloody?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know whether any blood came from your fingers or hands at that time?
A. What do you mean, dropped from them?
Q. Yes.
A. No Sir, I do not think there did.
Q. Have you thought of it before?
A. No Sir, I have not.
Q. Will you swear there did not?
A. No Sir I will not.
Q. When did you make any examination of these blood spots on the wall, then or afterwards?
A. Do you mean immediately behind the sofa?
Q. Anywhere on the wall in that room; although if I confuse you, I will ask if you then made any examination of the blood spots on the wall behind the sofa?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was at a later time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What else did you do down stairs then, and let us not misunderstand each other, after you had been upstairs, and merely looked at Mrs. Borden, and after examining the wounds of Mr. Borden the second time when you saw him, what else did you do then there?
A. I looked at the spots on the parlor door, and also looked at the blood that was dripping from the lounge.
Q. Now, as you have told me, this lounge was a sofa?
A. Yes Sir, a sofa, excuse me.
Q. Is it a hair cloth sofa?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Furnishing very little resistance in your opinion to the flowage of blood through it, would it not?
A. I am not prepared to say that, because I do not know how it is upholstered under the cloth?
Q. The hair cloth of the sofa?
A. I should say hair cloth would offer considerable resistance.
Q. Do you mean it would soak up blood?
A. No Sir.
Q. Would it slide off, or flow on the floor, off the side?
A. I mean it would coagulate, become solid.
Q. Become curded, like a cheese curd?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It would coagulate because it was kept in the air, and on the top of it?
A. Yes Sir, by the nature of the hair cloth.
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Q. The nature of the hair cloth is such as to keep the blood on top of it so it would not readily go through?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When it is kept up on top and exposed to the air, it becomes curded or coagulated?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that blood coagulated there?
A. No Sir, it was dripping on to the carpet and floor.
Q. Through the sofa?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The hair cloth did not furnish resistance to the flow of the blood then, did it?
A. Yes, but there was so much of it.
Q. How much blood is there in the human body?
A. From one twelfth to the thirteenth part of the weight of the body.
Q. Are you willing to give me your authority for that?
A. Yes Sir, almost any physiology.
Q. Is not it about one eighth?
A. Some put it one eighth. Some one tenth, some one twelfth, or one thirteenth; some say one fifteenth.
Q. Why did you put it the lowest amount? Who says one eighth?
A. I do not know particularly who says one eighth.
Q. Can you tell anybody?
A. I cannot now.
Q. Can you tell me any physiology that says one fifteenth?
A. Not by name.
Q. Are you prepared to say one eighth of the weight of the human body is not made up of blood?
A. I should say that would be the highest, the very highest.
Q. How much bulk of blood, by liquid measure, does it take to weigh a pound?
A. I am not prepared to answer that.
Q. Do not you know?
A. I am not prepared to answer that now.
Q. Is it a pint or a quart?
A. I am not prepared to answer.
Q. Is not that a common thing to be found in physiologies?
A. I do not know as it makes any difference whether a pint weighs a pound or two pounds.
Q. Does it not make any difference whether a man has a gallon or two gallons in his body, as to the amount he would bleed?
A. The reason I gave you from one twelfth to one thirteenth is because that is usually used.
Q. Used for what?
A. To find out the amount of blood in the body.
Q. Is that the amount of blood that will escape from the body?
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A. No Sir.
Q. When a body bleeds, does the blood all run out?
A. I never saw one yet.
Q. Do not you know, as a matter of experience and scientific research, from your experience as a physician and Medical Examiner, do not you know, as a fact, the blood does not all run out of the body?
A. I never heard of it or saw it.
Q. What did I just say?
A. I cannot tell you what you just said.
Q. My last question, seriously put, was whether you could tell me how much liquid measure it took to weigh a pound, liquid measure of blood; you said you could not tell?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then, as I remember, I asked you whether you could tell whether there was one or two or three gallons of blood in the human body; you said you did not recollect well about that. Then I asked you if it did not make some difference how much a man would bleed, as to how much blood he had in his
body, did not I?
A. I do not recollect it just that way.
Q. What do you say to that question, if you do not recollect it; whether it does not make some
difference as to how much a man will bleed, as to how much blood he has got in his body?
A. I cannot see through that question.
Q. You do not understand the question?
A. No Sir.
Q. It is undoubtedly my fault that you do not understand, but I will pass on to another. The next
question I would like to have you understand is this; whether in your opinion the blood upon an injury fatal or otherwise, which opens the veins and arteries, all runs out of the body?
A. No Sir, it does not.
Q. What proportion of it would run out?
A. I should think a very small proportion of it.
Q. A half?
A. I do not think it would.
Q. A fourth?
A. That would depend a great deal upon what part of the body was injured.
Q. If you cut an artery anywhere, the blood will run out?
A. It depends upon the size of the artery.
Q. Are they not all in connection with the reservoir?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do not they all run into it?
A. Not to empty that central reservoir.
Q. Does it not make some difference as to how the body is placed?
A. Yes Sir, gravity makes considerable difference.
Q. If a body is suspended in the air from a gas fixture, after a

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vital wound is given to the body, a great deal more will run out of it than as though it was lying recumbent upon a sofa, if you please?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. As a matter of fact the situation of Mr. Borden’s body, when you saw it, was favorable to less bleeding than many other conditions?
A. Not so far as his head was concerned.
Q. I asked you about his entire body, the individual; what do you say to my question?
A. I cannot answer that question put in that form.
Q. Very well. You said something, when I drifted off in this discussion about the amount of blood in the human body, as to whether blood had coagulated on this hair cloth sofa; now had it coagulated there?
A. I could not say.
Q. Do you not say the hair cloth would tend to make the blood coagulate?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you examine to see whether it had?
A. No Sir.
Q. Then you cannot tell me whether it had or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. So far as you recollect, did the blood run off the side of the sofa which is toward the center of the sitting room, did it run off on to the floor, without going in through it?
A. That is my impression, it ran in between the back and the side.
Q. That is in where the upholstering is?
A. No Sir.
Q. I mean the front side of the sofa, towards the front of the room, where there is no resistance
whatever?
A. No Sir; it did not go there at all.
Q. What else did you do then and there; I am now referring to the second time you had seen Mr.
Borden, and after you had been going up stairs and had seen Mrs. Borden without doing anything; what
else did you do there the sitting room at the time with reference to Mr. Borden?
A. I do not think I did anything.
Q. Did you take a view?
A. That is what I had been doing the second time.
Q. Did you make an autopsy?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you have any authority to make an autopsy then?
A. No Sir, I had not.
Q. Was not the Mayor there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did not he give you authority then and there?
A. For what?
Q. To make an autopsy?

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A. Yes Sir.
Q. As a matter of fact the situation of Mr. Borden’s body, when you saw it, was favorable to less bleeding than many other conditions?
A. Not so far as his head was concerned.
Q. I asked you about his entire body, the individual; what do you say to my question?
A. I cannot answer that question put in that form.
Q. Very well. You said something, when I drifted off in this discussion about the amount of blood in the human body, as to whether blood had coagulated on this hair cloth sofa; now had it coagulated there?
A. I could not say.
Q. Do you not say the hair cloth would tend to make the blood coagulate?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you examine to see whether it had?
A. No Sir.
Q. Then you cannot tell me whether it had or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. So far as you recollect, did the blood run off the side of the sofa which is toward the center of the sitting room, did it run off on to the floor, without going in through it?
A. That is my impression, it ran in between the back and the side.
Q. That is in where the upholstering is?
A. No Sir.
Q. I mean the front side of the sofa, towards the front of the room, where there is no resistance
whatever?
A. No Sir; it did not go there at all.
Q. What else did you do then and there; I am now referring to the second time you had seen Mr.
Borden, and after you had been going up stairs and had seen Mrs. Borden without doing anything; what
else did you do there the sitting room at the time with reference to Mr. Borden?
A. I do not think I did anything.
Q. Did you take a view?
A. That is what I had been doing the second time.
Q. Did you make an autopsy?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you have any authority to make an autopsy then?
A. No Sir, I had not.
Q. Was not the Mayor there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did not he give you authority then and there?
A. For what?
Q. To make an autopsy?

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A. Not then, no sir.
Q. When did he give you authority to make an autopsy?
A. I was referring “when” as to the time I made the autopsy, not to the time I got the authority.
Q. My “when” refers to authority, and nothingelse; that is what I am asking you, if you know?
A. I do not know that the Mayor gave me any explicit authority to do so at all.
Q. Have not you certified so in this Court?
A. Yes Sir, I have.
Q. Well, if you have, did you tell the truth?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When did he give you the authority then?
A. I do not know just when he did.
Q. Did he at all?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where?
A. In the house.
Q. That house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. I could not tell you the hour.
Q. That very day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was it in writing?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you make the autopsy that day?
A. I did not make any autopsy that day.
Q. When did you make it?
A. I made it on the eleventh of August, one week afterwards.
Q. You made it on the eleventh of August?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did not you make a return of your autopsy into this Court on the 8th of August?
A. I made the return —
Q. I beg your pardon; answer my question, if you understand it; if you do not say so. Did you make the return into this Court of your autopsy on the eighth of August?
A. A partial one.
Q. Did it say “partial”?
A. There was no need of saying it.
Q. I do not ask you what the need was. There is a law to direct you, and you say you get your direction from the law?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you say a partial report?
A. No Sir, not in writing; I did to his Honor, the Judge.

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Q. Have you filed any other since that?
A. No Sir, I have not.
Q. Then, according to your understanding, there is no report of an autopsy filed in this case, is there?
A. I do not think there is any official one.
Q. What are you, but an Official; are not you acting officially?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What report have you officially made in this case up to this hour?
A. The report you refer to as having been made on the 8th of August.
Q. Did you tell me anything about that? When I asked when you made your report, did not you say you made it in the eleventh of August?
A. The autopsy, yes.
Q. You made a report of it, did not you?
A. To whom?
Q. I ask you if you made — the transitive verb “made” — did you make a report of the autopsy?
A. To whom?
Q. To yourself, if you please. Did you make it? I appeal to your Honor whether the witness must not answer my question.
(Court.) If he understands the question, he must answer it. It is a very plain one.
Q. Do you understand the question?
A. I do not know to whom you refer, to whom I should make a report.
Q. What was the exact question I put to you?
A. You spoke of a transitive verb “made”. Had I made a report of an autopsy.
Q. Do you understand what that means?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Answer the question then.
(Court.) What objection have you to answering the question as to whether or not you made a report?
A. I want to know to whom he refers, to whom I should make it.
(Court.) How is that material? If you want to explain after answering you have a right so to do.
A. If you recollect, your Honor, I tendered you a report of the autopsy.
(Court.) The report you handed to me was a partial report, as I understand it?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Adams.) Does your Honor think he should answer my question?
(Court.) I do not know why he should not answer, I am frank to say, if he made a report of the autopsy, to whom he made it.
(Mr. Adams.) I do not ask that.
(Court.) I added that; I will leave that out. Have you made a report?
A. I made a report to the District Attorney.
Q. I asked you, if you made a report of the autopsy; did you, or did you not?
A. Yes Sir.

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Q. Was that on the eleventh of August?
A. I do not think it was.
Q. When was it?
A. I think it was on the 15th.
Q. On the 15th of August, a week ago yesterday?
A. I wont be positive what day it was.
Q. Did you make it in writing?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you make more than one copy?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Last Monday, when this case came up, was there anything on file in this Court, except that first record of an autopsy, which you call a partial report?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you understand that under the Statute you are directed to file a report of your autopsy with the Court?
A. Yes Sir.
(Court.) In the Municipal Court, it is to be filed with the Court; in the District Court, with the Justice.
Q. I am much obliged for your Honor’s correction. Do you understand you are to file a report of your autopsy with the District Attorney and with the Justice of the District Court?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And that the public have access to it?
A. I do not know anything about that part of it.
Q. You are perfectly willing the public should have access to it?
A. After it passed out of my hands.
Q. Have you filed a copy of that second autopsy record with the Justice?
A. No Sir.
Q. Oh, you have not done that. Why should not you do it? Well, Mr. Witness, if you can find a reason, please tell me.
A. I will state that I proffered a record of the autopsy to the Justice of this Court. Whether he misunderstood me, or did not understand what it was, I do not know. He did not take it.
Q. When did you make the autopsy, the report of which you filed in this Court on the eighth of August?
A. That was on the fourth of August.
Q. That is the day of this calamity in this town, was it not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What time in the day?
A. Half past three in the afternoon.
Q. Who were present?
A. His Honor, the Mayor, was there, Dr. Gunning, and Dr. Learned. I know there were several physicians there.
Q. When did you write that out?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. That day?
A. I could not tell you, sir, when I wrote it.

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Q. That was Thursday, was it not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do not you keep any record of your work?
A. Yes Sir; I certainly do.
Q. Did you take minutes at that time, there at the house.
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In a book?
A. No Sir.
Q. What did you take them in.
A. On slips of paper.
Q. Where are those slips of paper?
A. I could not tell you where they are.
Q. The records of this important case, your original notes which the Statute obliges you to take, what did you do with them?
A. That is putting a great big cover over it. The records of this great case are not lost, and have not been mislaid or misplaced.
Q. Does not the Statute say you shall make minutes at the time of your view?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you make minutes?
A. Yes Sir, I said I had.
Q. Where did you take them?
A. I took them in the house.
Q. Did you destroy them?
A. I could not tell you what I did with them.
Q. Can you tell me whether you destroyed them, or not?
A. I cannot.
Q. What do you think?
A. I cannot tell whether I have destroyed them or not.
Q. Did you burn them?
A. Well, if I burned them, I would know it.
Q. That is what I should think; but I am not sure whether you did or not, and I am asking you. You did not burn them?
A. No Sir; I am not in the habit of burning things like that.
Q. It is not your habit, I am asking about a particular instance. Did you burn these notes?
A. No Sir, I did not burn them.
Q. Where did you put them, the last you saw of them?
A. The last I saw of them they were in my pocket book, my case book.
Q. Have you your case book here?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Are they in there?
A. No Sir.
Q. How do you know?
A. Because I looked.
Q. When?
A. Today
Q. What for?
A. For the notes.

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Q. What did you want of them?
A. I wanted to look at them.
Q. Why?
A. For information.
Q. Have not you got all the information you want?
A. I do not know; that is a very peculiar question, have not I got all the information I want.
Q. Were you in doubt about anything today, when you looked for those notes?
A. I wanted to see how near the notes which I took that day, compared with the record, the perfect record of the autopsy held on the eleventh.
Q. Which has never been filed?
A. Which has been filed with the District Attorney.
Q. Does the Statute say you may ignore the Justice of this Court?
A. I have not ignored him.
Q. Does the Statute as you understand it, say so?
A. I have not ignored him.
Q. Does the Statute say you should do it?
A. I do not know as the Statutes are for ignoring anybody.
Q. I will not spend time on this.
(Mr. Knowlton.) It will be done before he leaves the stand, if he has it in his pocket.
(Mr. Adams.) I have no doubt the District Attorney will have the right thing done, when he finds out.
Q. You wanted to see if that compared with the perfect notes taken of this other autopsy?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then this other autopsy, I have just been talking about, had perfect notes, did it?
A.. I do not know whether your “other” refers to the same one my “other” refers to.
Q. Were there more than two?
A. “Other” dont require more than two.
Q. Was there a third autopsy?
A.. I have only heard of two so far.
Q. There was one on the fourth of August?
A. No Sir, a partial one.
(After a short discussion the report of the partial autopsy is handed to Mr. Jennings.)
Q. Now, Mr. Dolan, is that your signature?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And is that your report of the autopsy?
A. A partial autopsy.
Q. Is that your report?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Does it say “partial” anywhere?
A. No Sir.

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Q. Where does the word “partial” come in?
A. Because it was partial.
(Mr. Adams reads the report.)
Q. That is the whole of your report, is not it, your record?
A. Of that partial autopsy, yes sir.
Q. Does it say partial record or partial autopsy?
A. I say it is partial.
Q. Does this say so?
A. If it is there, I think you would see it.
Q. Did you make a record, and a report of your autopsy upon Mrs. Borden the same day?
A. Yes Sir, partial.
Q. That says the eighth of August, does it not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was Monday, was it not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When did you hold your next autopsy?
A. I held the autopsy on the eleventh of August.
Q. How many days after that, three?
A. How many days after what?
Q. It was the following Thursday, was not it?
A. That is what I said.
Q. It was the following Thursday, was not it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was this funeral?
A. I do not know, sir; I do not keep records of that.
Q. Was not the funeral on the Saturday following the Thursday?
A. As a matter of fact, I believe it was.
Q. Did you see the undertaker before the funeral?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did he see you?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Did you send word to him, authorizing him to inter these bodies, before the funerals?
A. No Sir, I telephoned to him.
Q. Do you call that sending word to him?
A. No Sir.
Q. You telephoned to him, then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not mean to exclude that from me, did you? You did not mean to keep that information from me, did you?
A. What do you mean?
Q. About your seeing him, or sending him any word, before the funeral.
A. I do not know as there is any information in it.
Q. Did you telephone him?
A. Yes, his clerk.
Q. Did you authorize him to proceed with the funeral and inter these bodies?

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A. No Sir.
Q. Did you say the funeral might proceed?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you say anything of the sort?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you say so to anybody, or telephone or telegraph, or whisper. or carry any word, or anything of that kind?
A. No Sir.
Q. So far as you know, were these bodies interred?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you turn these bodies over to the family with leave to inter them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When did you do that?
A. I think the day of the murder.
Q. The day of the murder? Were they interred?
A. No Sir.
Q. By whose order were they not interred?
A. By mine.
Q. When did you give it?
A. I think it was Saturday morning; it was the day of the funeral.
Q. Before the funeral?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. To whom?
A. I telephoned to Mr. Winwood’s office; his clerk, I presume it was, who answered.
Q. That is the undertaker, is it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where was this second autopsy, the Thursday after this funeral, made?
A. The autopsy on Thursday after the funeral was held at Oak Grove cemetery.
Q. What time in the day?
A. A few minutes after eleven o’clock, supposed to be eleven o’clock.
Q. Who gave you the authority to make that?
A. I do not know whether District Attorney Knowlton, or the Attorney General.
Q. Was it either one?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you come to this Court for authority?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was it verbal or written?
A. Verbal.
Q. From whom did you receive it?
A. I told you I did not know; it was either the District Attorney, or the Attorney General.
Q. How did you receive it?
A. Verbally.
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Q. Telephoned?
A. You might probably get up a technical point, whether a telephone was verbal or not?
Q. You are getting up the technical points. Did the District Attorney see you, and tell you to make a second autopsy?
A. I told you I did not know whether it was the District Attorney or the Attorney General.
Q. It was verbal any how?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went to this cemetery; who accompanied you?
A. Dr. Draper of Boston, and Dr. D. E. Cone of Fall River, and Dr. Leary of Fall River.
Q. Dr. Draper was one of the Medical Examiners of Boston?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who took notes that time?
A. Dr. Cone.
Q. Did you take any?
A. No Sir, I dictated.
Q. What are these notes in your book, that you produce here today?
A. Those are the notes of the autopsy.
Q. Where did you get them from?
A. Do you mean this particular copy?
Q. Why, that little book of notes you referred to today, about the autopsy, that little book that you have got in your pocket now.
A. There are no notes of an autopsy there, I misunderstood you.
Q. Have you any notes of the second autopsy?
A. I have notes of the Oak Grove Autopsy.
Q. Call it the Oak Grove Autopsy, for identification. Have you any notes of that?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where are they?
A. In my pocket.
Q. In what?
A. In an envelope.
Q. In whose handwriting?
A. Nobodies.
Q. In typewriting?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You dictated them to this Doctor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In your office, or at the Oak Grove Cemetery?
A. At the Oak Grove.
Q. You took your typewriter up there?
A. No Sir.
Q. You had one up there?
A. No Sir.
Q. How were they typewritten up there?
A. They were not.
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Q. I understood you to say so?
A. No Sir.
Q. How were they taken down up there?
A. In ordinary long hand.
Q. By this Doctor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where were they type written?
A. In the office of Cummings & Higginson, by the typewriter there.
Q. You dictated them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It is that typewriter copy you got at in some way, that is now in your pocket?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is it put into a record of an autopsy?
A. No Sir, it is ordinary cap paper.
Q. Have you any record of that Oak Grove Autopsy?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where is that?
A. In my pocket.
Q. Is it officially made out?
A. Yes Sir, not on the Official form.
Q. Have you given the District Attorney one of them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When did you do it?
A. I do not know whether it was Monday or not; last Monday, I think it was.
Q. The day of this postponement, last Monday?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You remember it now, do you?
A. I say I think it was.
Q. Where was it given to him?
A. I think down stairs in the Marshal’s office.
Q. After the Court had come in?
A. No Sir.
Q. When did you offer it to the Justice of this Court, I understand you to say that you did?
A. It was the same day, I think it was.
Q. Now we will come back to this second view that you made of Mr. Borden in the sitting room down stairs that day, which was somewhere around twelve o’clock, you say. Did you remove the stomach then?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you take the temperature of his body then?
A. What do you mean, by thermometer, or by touch?
Q. Answer my question, if you understand it?
A. Did I take the temperature of the body then? I took the temperature by the sense of touch.
Q. Whose touch?
A. Mine.
Q. Things have been delegated so, I did not know how we were going
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to find out. You felt of the body then, did you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is that what you understand to be taking the temperature of a body?
A. No Sir.
Q. Can you tell with ten degrees by touching anybody, what the temperature is?
A. I think you can come pretty near it.
Q. Did you ever try?
A. Yes Sir, I do not know how many times? I try it every day of my life.
Q. Then compare it with a thermometer?
A. Yes Sir, not for comparison.
Q. Within how near can you come?
A. Half a degree, sometimes one fifth of a degree.
Q. Never a degree out of the way?
A. Yes, sometimes.
Q. What is the average temperature of the healthy human body?
A. 98 and 2/5. sometimes 98 and 3/5.
Q. Does it vary in Winter and Summer?
A. Not that I am aware of.
Q. What was the temperature of this body that day at that time, when you touched it?
A. I could not tell you definitely what the temperature was.
Q. But you can come within one fifth or one eighth of a degree in a living subject.
A. This was a dead subject, he was dead.
Q. It was cold.
A. No Sir, he was not cold.
Q. It was warm?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How warm was it then?
A. It would be speculation to say how warm it was.
Q. Then speculate.
A. I should say the external bodily temperature of Mr. Borden when I saw him, was at least from 90 to 94.
Q. Did you make any incision then for the purpose of autopsy?
A. No Sir.
Q. Take a reasonably healthy person who suddenly dies, and the body is found in the middle of the day in the warm season, a very hot day of that season, how soon in your opinion will that body become
cool?
A. Well, various bodies differ; I could not give you any general answer to that question, any specific answer to that question.
Q. Why do they differ?
A. Some differ on account of the quantity of fat, some the quantity of blood, and other various reasons.
Q. Any other reasons beside fat and blood?
A. There are other reasons; I cannot think of them just at present.

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Q. Take a normal body, found under the circumstances I have given to you, how soon would it take?
A. Normal bodies differ.
Q. In eight hours?
A. You find some warm in eight hours, and find some cold in eight hours.
Q. Under the same circumstances?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What part of the time do they cool the most rapidly, the last part; do you know?
A. How the surface temperature cools?
Q. Yes.
A. Do you mean, the hours immediately suscceeding, or more removed?
Q. Yes.
A. I should judge that the average would be more intense immediately after death than some hours afterwards.
Q. That is to say, when a person dies, the temperature lowers very fast to begin with?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then it almost imperceptibly fades away at the last?
A. Yes Sir, that is my idea.
Q. How many degrees would it lower in an hour?
A. I could not tell you that.
Q. Twenty?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. If it takes eight or nine hours to cool off the human body, would not 20 be a fair estimate for the first hour?
A. I think you would have a pretty cool body if you dropped 20 degrees from a temperature of 60.
Q. You do not figure 20 from 98 to be 60 do you?
A. No, not quite.
Q. That would be 18 more, 78?
A. I could not say how much it would drop.
Q. The temperature of this room, that is not so delightful as it might be, is not more than 78?
A. Between 78 and 80.
Q. Cant you touch it and see?
A. Cant I touch what, sir?
Q. I should not have said that; I beg your pardon.
A. How hot is this room? I should say about 80.
Q. The temperature of the human body that would fall 20 degrees the first hour, would be only two degrees lower than this room, at the present time, you think that would be a pretty cold body, do you?
A. How is that?
Q. I asked you a minute or two ago, did I not, if it would not fall 20 degrees in the first hour, the
temperature of the dead body, you said you thought that would make a body pretty cold, if the normal temperature was 98 and a fraction, I will give you the fraction,

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dropping 20 would be 78?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. If this room is 80, you are an expert, in temperature I will admit, then the temperature of that body you think would be so cold, would be two degrees less than the temperature of this room?
A. I made a mistake there of ten degrees.
Q. I am asking about the human body that has died, what the temperature would fall the first hour, I suggested 20; you said that was too much, will you agree with me now?
A. No, I do not think it is too much.
Q. How much will it go in the second hour; do you suppose it goes ten?
A. I would not say. I think it is speculative, entirely.
Q. Let us come back to Mr. Borden; his temperature was 94?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You said he had been dead half an hour?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Why did you think so?
A. I was told when he was alive.
Q. What they told you, contradicts medical science?
A. Not at all.
Q. Did not you say his temperature was about 94?
A. From 90 to 94.
Q. Call it 90. The average temperature is 98. He had been dead half an hour?
A. I think I said so.
Q. You will agree with me the temperature will fall ten degrees the first hour?
A. I did not say it would.
Q. It is exceedingly improbable then, that it would?
A. I do not know as to that.
Q. Between you and me, do we know very much about these things?
A. I told you it was speculation mostly.
Q. Is not this the fact, that you could not judge absolutely from anything you saw there in that room, how long this man had been dead, but you judged from what people told you?
A. I judged from what people told me, and I judged also from the temperature of his body at the time.
Q. Have not you just said to me, temperature in the way we have discussed it, is mostly speculative?
A. Yes Sir, to a great extent.
Q. What else? I still ask you to stay in this sitting room with the second view of Mr. Borden, after youhad been up stairs and merely looked at Mrs. Borden. What else did you see there, or do there?
A. I do not know that I did anythingelse.
Q. Did anybody do anythingelse while you were there?
A. Not to the body, no sir.
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Q. Anywhere in the room? Did anybody take any notes then and there?
A. Yes Sir, I took them myself.
Q. At this view, you took them yourself?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you take some more in the afternoon?
A. I dont know whether I took them; I dont think I did take any in the afternoon, except to take the length of Mr. Borden’s body.
Q. Who did take them, if anybody, in the afternoon?
A. I think it was Dr. Tourtellott; I am pretty sure it was Dr. Tourtellott took them; for Mrs. Borden he did, at any rate.
Q. These notes you took then, there, yourself at about this hour, were taken by you on a block or scraps of paper that you had in your pocket?
A. On a block.
Q. How much did you write?
A. I think probably a couple of pieces of paper.
Q. How big was this block, take the stenographer’s note book there, was it as wide as that?
A. I can give you the regular size; about that size. (Producing one.)
Q. After writing those notes, what else did you do there?
A. In the morning you mean?
Q. This time when you were having this view of Mr. Borden.
A. I do not think I did anythingelse, that is, to the body.
Q. Anywhere in that room?
A. No Sir, not that I can recollect.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. I assisted the Officers in hunting the house, searching the house.
Q. Who were these officers?
A. Officer Mullaly, Officer Doherty. And Assistant Marshal Fleet.
Q. Have you given them all?
A. As near as I can recollect, yes sir.
Q. Where did you go first?
A. I think we searched the lower floor first; I am not positive.
Q. The lower floor is the front hall, parlor, dining and sitting room, and the kitchen, and the room off the kitchen, that back hall, and the room on the other side of the back hall?
A. A room on the other side? I think they communicated, there were two rooms.
Q. I am referring to the back entry that goes out the side of the house, is not there a small room on each side of that?
A. I think only one.
Q. Where was Miss Lizzie at this time?
A. I do not know whether she had gone up stairs or not, at that time, I rather think she had.
Q. Where was she when you last saw her?
A. In her room. You mean that day?
Q. When you made the search in the first floor.
A. In her room.

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Q. You did not see her up in her room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I understand you to say, immediately then, you began to search with the officers?
A. I said that; but that has nothing to do with what time I saw her.
Q. Where was she when you began to make that search?
A. I said I did not know.
Q. Where was she when you last saw her, before you began this search?
A. In her room I think; I am not positive.
Q. After this being done, with reference to Mr. Borden, did the officers come in, and you make a search then and there of the first floor?
A. Yes Sir, the search began immediately.
Q. I understood you to say you helped them?
A. I did.
Q. When did you see her in her room up stairs?
A. She was there when I came away, about half past one.
Q. you had been making an examination of Mr. Borden, and taking notes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Immediately after that the officers came, and you went to searching the first floor; where was Miss Lizzie all that time?
A. I could not tell you; I think she was up in her room.
Q. Did you see her go up into her room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see which room she went into?
A. No Sir.
Q. Which way did she go?
A. Came from the dining room, as I recollect it.
Q. Which way did she go?
A. The front way, I think, I would not be positive about it; there were so many going around; but that is my recollection.
Q. You began to search with the officers, and searched all these rooms, searched everything?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What else did you do at that time?
A. I do not think anythingelse, except to see Mrs. Borden up stairs, and take notes of her wounds.
Q. When did that happen, after the search?
A. I would not say whether before or after.
Q. Have you told me now what took place, you went up stairs, and looked at her, and then came down and examined Mr. Borden, put your fingers in his injuries, took these notes, touched him for his temperature, and saw the blood, did all these things, and the officers came in, and you made the search all through those rooms, is that right?
A. I might have gone up stairs —
Q. Do you know?
A. Not positively.
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Q. Was that the time when you saw Miss Lizzie, when you went up stairs?
A. What time, the last time?
Q. After this search, when you went up to make the autopsy or view of Mrs. Borden?
A. I saw her in her room three or four times.
Q. When you went up stairs to make the autopsy of Mrs. Borden?
A. I did not make any autopsy up stairs.
Q. You took a view up there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you went up to take the view, was that the time when you saw her in her room?
A. I think so, but I would not say positively.
Q. That was half past one?
A. No Sir.
Q. Have not you said it was half past one when you made the search, and autopsy of Mrs. Borden?
A. The last time I saw her in her room was half past one.
Q. Whether you made the view of Mrs. Borden up stairs, after you got through down stairs, and the officers had searched that first floor?
A. I am not positive whether I did before or after the search.
Q. Did the search get through before half past one?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What time did it get through? What time did the search get through?
A. I could not tell you, I did not look at my watch every time.
Q. Did you look at your watch at half past one?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long before that did it get through?
A. It must have been through half or three quarters of an hour.
Q. Then you are not sure but then you went up stairs, and took your view of Mrs. Borden; is that right?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was about quarter to one, was it not?
A. If it was as late as that when the search got through, I must have examined Mrs. Borden before we went on the search; I told you I was not positive.
Q. Did you not tell me you went up and just looked at her, and then went down stairs, and all these things occurred?
A. I told you I did not know positively whether I made the view of Mrs. Borden, that is the second, to examine her wounds, before or after the search.
Q. Who went with you when you took the second view of Mrs. Borden, and examined her wounds?
A. Dr. Hardy, and Dr. Tourtelott, and I think Dr. Bowen.
Q. At that time did any one of the physicians disturb the position of the body?
A. I disturbed it.

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Q. Did anybodyelse?
A. Simply in assisting me, I think.
Q. Not before you touched the body?
A. No Sir.
Q. What dress did she have on?
A. A calico dress.
Q. What color?
A. A light one.
Q. Any figure?
A. I think not.
Q. Light blue, pink or brown?
A. I do not know; it was a light color.
Q. Give me some hint what the color of that gown was?
A. I do not see anything here that looks just like it.
Q. It did not have a red tone, or blue, or pink tone?
A. No Sir.
Q. You cannot tell whether it had any figure or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was it light all through; was the waist the same as the skirt, the same material?
A. I think it was, sir.
Q. You spoke of her head being four or five feet in your opinion from that wall against which the head
of the bed stood, and you spoke of the situation of the head, and the wounds on it, and I understand you to say these wounds were incised, that is cut by an instrument having a sharp edge. This is the right side of my head, how did those wounds trend, so?
A. No, they appeared to go more from the front, behind.
Q. In that direction?
A. Yes Sir, diagonal.
Q. Beginning with the right hand side of the medial line of my head.
A. Some were on the left.
Q. Four?
A. Yes.
Q. And 14 on the right?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Beginning there, they went from the medial line of his head, diagonally, from front to rear?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. There were fourteen in here?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Parallel?
A. For all practical purposes they were parallel.
Q. That is what you said, did you not.
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was there any blow on the right hand side of the head, or the mark of any blow, made by a blunt instrument, over the ear?
A. I saw none that I can say— Some of those wounds, though all
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incised, some of them were incised, crushing wounds; that is, they incised, and then crushed afterwards.
Q. You mean then, that in you opinion the cutting edge of some instrument went through?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Flush to the skull?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And after that was done, some blunt end of an instrument crushed in where those incised wounds already had been?
A. Whether before or after, I could not say.
Q. Afterwards, would not the edges of the wound, if it was an incised wound, would not they show, unless they were obliterated by this crushing?
A. They should show some, yes sir.
Q. Did not they in this case?
A. I do not think they did.
Q. Is it not your opinion the incised wounds were given first?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then, as I understand it, after this cutting edge had come down through with these 14 blows, or whatever they were, the blunt edge or face of some instrument struck afterwards, crushing the skull?
A. That would not be necessary at all; the incised wounds were crushing in themselves. After cutting through the scalp, and cutting the bone out, they cut pieces right out for themselves; they themselves served as a crushing blow by pressing down into the brain, cutting the bone ahead of them.
Q. Those incised wounds, are incised, they cut the eye ball?
A. That is Mr. Borden.
Q. Was not there a cut on her head as unique as that?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you mean to say with that sharp edge that makes the incised wound, there is a crushing effect too, and it would not leave its distinct line there?
A. Yes Sir; I mean to say in cutting a piece of bone out, in two or three pieces of bone, one blow would come along, and carry the scalp with it.
Q. What part of the head were the pieces cut out by the blow or fracture?
A. The right side, toward the back.
Q. I wonder if you could not help me a little by that. (Producing a small doll) I have not attempted to make any travesty; it seems to me this manikin is less shocking—
(Court.) There ought to be none.
Q. If I understand you, in the first place these arms were up so, in a crude way, lying down in that position?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now these blows began here, and cut through there so?
A. Not quite so high up.
Q. Wont you take a lead pencil and mark them?

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A. The hair is not parted exactly in the middle. (Marks).
Q. You have indicated on this manikin the central line of the head?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then upon the right side here, you have made certain marks upon the painted figure, indicating the general location of the wounds?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. None of the wounds appear by your representation here to be anything beyond, in substance, the line running from the ear perpendicular over the head?
A. No Sir; one or two may come a little anterior to that.
Q. Most of them are posterior?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The wounds here that you speak of, referring now to the left side of the head, were four in number?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And they were, as you have marked here, largely on the part of the back of the head, which was on the left of this central line?
A. Yes Sir, and commencing farther from the line here, and gradually going down.
Q. Did those run in practically the same direction, parallel with those on the right side of the head?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. These wounds on the left side of the head, I understand you to state were contused?
A. No Sir, incised.
Q. But they were the ones, that did not, so far as you examined, cut into the skull?
A. Yes Sir, they did.
Q. Did they cut into the skull?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did they cut through the skull?
A. No Sir, only the one on top took a piece out, that little one I have marked there.
Q. I understood you to say the uppermost one on the left hand side went into the skull, or chipped out a
piece, as you would chip out a piece of ice, or anything that would fracture irregularly?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In your opinion were these blows given by a person standing behind?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was there any blow or wound anywhere else upon her head?
A. On that left side?
Q. On either side.
A. Yes sir, right here, on the bridge of the nose there was one. Those were contusions. Not blows; here were two blows. I think those are the locations of the others; I am not quite positive.
Q. That is to say, the injuries to the face?
A. I am not quite positive whether I put those on the right side there or not.
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Q. The wounds on the face consist of some contusions on the nose, and some on the right forehead,
over the eye?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. All of which, in your opinion, might be adequately caused by a woman of her appearance, her size,
and weight, falling forward on to the face?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I understand you to say at the Oak Grove Autopsy, there was found an injury in the back of Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was just below the line of the junction of the neck, and it went from below, backwards?
A. I simply chose that point because it was a good starting point.
Q. It went diagonally, cutting into the spine, and going diagonally in which direction?
A. In the direction of the left shoulder.
Q. Wont you be good enough to mark the place.
A. Of course this manikin is not very perfect anatomy, the shoulders are too low down.
Q. I see two marks here.
A. I gave that one as the central line of the spine, that is the wound. That is a soil there, not a mark.
Q. I have made that a little more distinct, is that right?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did that cut through the gown?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were there any stays or other garments under that, as high up, or only the under wear?
A. The top of the chemise was cut.
Q. How deep was that wound?
A. About two and a half inches deep.
Q. That is, running your fingers in so?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It would come down to the middle joint of my finger, or more?
A. More than that. Perhaps some of that a week afterwards might have been post mortem swelling; I do not think the wound originally was that deep.
Q. I mean the depth of the wound caused by this instrument.
A. That was the exact measurement, two and a half. I think there was some post mortem inflammation there of the gas.
Q. Did it go into the bone anywhere?
A. No Sir, it did not.
Q. Can you give me your opinion as to what the depth of that wound was at the time it was given?
A. About two inches.
Q. Down to the middle joint of my finger would be a fair illustration of the depth of it?
A. Yes Sir.
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Q. Where was the wound deepest, towards the shoulder blade, or towards the spine?
A. Towards the shoulder blade.
Q. Towards the left shoulder blade, and running diagonally down the spine, towards the shoulder blade?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that wound in the back given, in your opinion, before or after these wounds on the head?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Was the wound in the back necessarily a fatal one?
A. No Sir.
Q. In other words, a person might recover from that?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. There would be every probability that they would?
A. Yes Sir; it was a flesh wound.
Q. We recollect you stated the length of this back wound to be four inches, is that right?
A. No Sir, two and a half.
Q. What of these wounds on the head, in your opinion, if any of them, were given while the person were standing up?
A. I would say the glancing scalp wound, which I spoke of, on the left side, that did not mark the skull; that flap drew right back.
Q. Now you tell us of a glancing scalp wound on the left side of the head over the left ear?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You think that wound might have been given under what circumstances?
A. While standing up, and facing.
Q. That was not necessarily fatal?
A. No Sir.
Q. What were the dimensions of that wound?
A. I think one and a half by two inches.
Q. An inch and a half wide, and two inches running from front to back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did it cut the flesh entirely off?
A. No Sir.
Q. If there was any supporting hinge, where was that?
A. At the rear.
Q. Exactly in the back, or toward the bottom?
A. More towards the bottom; I think it was about medium. I would not say positively whether it was towards the bottom or above; I think about the middle.
Q. Was this hinge practically the entire width of the wound?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So the flesh would fly back, like that?
A. Yes Sir, a flapping wound.

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Q. Now you are describing, in answer to my question, the wounds that she might have received when standing up; is there any other wound that you think of?
A. I do not think so, sir.
Q. In your opinion were all the other wounds given when the person was lying down, prone on the floor? Could they be?
A. Yes Sir, they could be.
Q. In your opinion, from what you saw, were they so given?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was the age of this person?
A. I think it was 54 or 64, 64 I think.
Q. You said in this partial record that she was 67.
A. It was corrected afterwards to 64.
Q. She was 64?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she have a full head of hair?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was its color?
A. It was getting to gray; it was not what you call a head of gray hair; but it was getting to that color.
Q. What was the pigment, or the color of it?
A. I think it was brown, or a blackish; I did not pay much attention to that?
Q. You do not think it was dead black; you think it had a brownish tinge, slowly turning gray?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How was it worn?
A. It was down when I saw it, the knot was broken.
Q. The knot, or whatever it was, was broken, and it was down?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How was the front, parted in the middle, and combed down smooth?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did these blows, or any of them, cut the hair?
A. Yes Sir, all of them cut the hair.
Q. Cut it right through?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was it a clean incised cut of the hair?
A. Some of it was so matted you could not tell. There was one large one on top that was cut as though you cut it with the shears; it was a wound that took out the piece of skull on the left side; it was not glancing, but was neat and clean.
Q. As though done with a razor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you put your fingers into the wound on the head at this time?
A. Do you mean the second time I saw her up stairs?
Q. At the time we are talking about, this was the time you took the real serious view, did you?
A. Yes Sir.

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Q. Did they become bloody?
A. My fingers, yes sir.
Q. Had you washed them since you came up stairs from Mr. Borden?
A. I am pretty sure I did not.
Q. Did you search the cellar before you came up stairs?
A. Before I got through yes sir.
Q. Did you search the cellar before you got through with Mrs. Borden’s autopsy or view?
A. We stopped the searching, and went through the cellar.
Q. When did you go through the cellar?
A. We followed the search on the first floor, and then went down cellar.
Q. Did you go down there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see any axes or hatchets?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were they handed to you?
A. Yes Sir, a couple of them were.
Q. Did you take them?
A. I took them in my hand and examined them.
Q. What for?
A. To see if there was any color on them.
Q. You said you had not washed your hands then.
A. I do not think I had.
Q. Did not you get blood on the handle?
A. I do not think so.
Q. Were not your hands all bloody from being on this woman’s wounds?
A. Not to offset that question at all, but I remember now that I did go into the kitchen to the kitchen sink and wash my hands. After Mrs. Borden, I washed them up stairs in Mrs. Borden’s room, where she was found.
Q. That was after the autopsy on her?
A. Down stairs I also washed them at the kitchen sink, after I got through with Mr. Borden.
Q. Had you ever thought of that question before until I just put it to you?
A. No Sir never thought of it.
Q. Were you telling your good sound recollection before, when you said you had not washed your hands?
A. I said I was pretty positive I had not, now I swear I did.
Q. If you did not, it was the blood from your own hands that went on to that handle?
A. I told you it was not to offset that question.
Q. How many times did you wash your hands?
A. I washed them in the kitchen sink before I went up stairs; and I
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washed them up stairs in the guest room where Mrs. Borden was found.
Q. Was there water there?
A. Not running water; there was a basin and ewer or pitcher.
Q. What did you do with the water?
A. Left it there.
Q. In the basin?
A. Yes sir.
Q. All bloody?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did any of the officers, or men who were searching, take hold of Mr. Borden to lift him up?
A. I do not think so, not in my presence.
Q. Did they of Mrs. Borden?
A. I thought your first question was of Mrs. Borden.
Q. I meant of either.
A. No Sir, I do not recollect of removing either one.
Q. Did either of the officers wash their hands while there?
A. I do not know sir.
Q. Did you see them?
A. I could not say.
Q. Come, recollect if you can whether anybody else washed his hands while you were there, besides yourself.
A. I do not know whether they did. I saw people at the sink; I do not know whether they were officers; I did not take notice.
Q. Do not you know the officers of this town?
A. A great many of them.
Q. And you a Medical Examiner?
(Mr. Jennings.) They all have uniforms on.
A. Mr. Allen was in citizen’s dress that day.
Q. You know some of them when they do not have uniforms on?
A. I did not pay attention as to who went to the sink. I do not think either of the officers disturbed Mr. or Mrs. Borden; not surely in my presence.
Q. Did not they lift up the rug?
A. What rug?
Q. In either of the rooms.
A. I do not know as there were any rugs there.
Q. Have not you put a rug down anywhere, or lifted one up since you have been in that house?
A. Yes, but not that day.
Q. Have you seen any rugs in that house?
A. Yes I saw rugs.
Q. Did you see any of the officers lift up a rug that day?
A. I do not remember.
Q. Did they look at the carpets in either of the rooms?
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A. I presume they did; I do not know whether they did or not.
Q. These carpets were drenched with blood near the sofa, and near the bureau up stairs?
A. No; under the sofa unless you were really looking, you could not see it, it was under the arm, it was not exposed as it was up stairs.
Q. I asked you as a matter of fact whether the carpet, seen or unseen at that time, did not subsequently prove to be drenched with blood, near the head of the sofa?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went down cellar, and you had some instruments handed to you by an officer, after you had washed your hands?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How many of them?
A. I think I handled two, I would not say positively.
Q. Two what?
A. Two instruments.
Q. What were they?
A. One was a hatchet, and the other an ax.
Q. The hatchet was this hatchet with the blade four or five inches long, with the head on it which had a claw?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now, in your opinion, did not that hatchet with the claw on it cause the fracture of the skull upon the left side of Mr. Borden’s head?
A. Do you mean the head of it, or the instrument itself?
Q. I said the head, with that claw hammer on it, whether in your opinion that was not the instrument that caused the fracture of the skull over the left ear of Mr. Borden’s head?
A. I think it could.
Q. Could an ax?
A. Yes Sir, an ax head yes sir.
Q. Could a stone?
A. I do not think so.
Q. Why?
A. Because it was too regular in its outline.
Q. What was too regular?
A. The fracture.
Q. What was the outline of the fracture?
A. Almost square; it was not exactly square; I should think it would be about four inches long, and two inches wide.
Q. Rectangular in shape?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That ax or hatchet has gone to Prof. Wood, had it not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know where it is now?
A. I have not received it back from him.
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(Mr. Knowlton) We will have it here Friday or Saturday.
Q. You say this fracture was about four inches long by two inches wide?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you mean to say the fracture of a skull follows the outline of the weapon that gives it?
A. Not necessarily so.
Q. Oftentimes is not the blow given on one side of the head, and the fracture found on the other?
A. Very frequently, sir.
Q. As you said yourself, a man may fall from a great height, and strike on top of his head, and fracture down here three or four inches away from the point of contact?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In other words, it is like striking ice, there may be fractures in many directions from the point ofcontact, or blow?
A. Yes Sir, but the ice is solid.
Q. Where you spoke of the skull being fractured, on the left hand side of Mr. Borden’s head, over the ear, was it broken entirely in?
A. It was not exactly over, it was a little posterior of the ear, a little behind.
Q. As you go to the back of the skull, does it grow stronger?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When did you measure that man’s skull?
A. I have not measured it accurately at all.
Q. I understood you to say since dinner, in answer to the District Attorney’s question, it was one twelfth of an inch, having reference to his skull.
A. Yes Sir, about.
Q. Was his skull a thick or thin one?
A. Very thin at that place.
Q. Are thin skulls necessarily weak?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And thick skulls are necessarily strong?
A. Yes Sir, at the point of contact.
Q. What is the average thickness of the human skull?
A. About quarter of an inch, I should say.
Q. Then this man’s skull was 2/12 of an inch thinner than the ordinary skull?
A. I think his age would account for that.
Q. Does the skull grow thin as you grow old?
A. In certain places it does.
Q. Does the skull grow thin as you grow old?
A. Yes Sir, to a certain extent it does.
Q. What is the change in the thickness, or thinness of the human skull from middle life to old age? Will a skull that is 3/12 at 40 reasonably become 1/12 of an inch thick at 70?
A. Reasonably, yes sir. That is not a definite law at all.
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Q. Perhaps it is not an apt illustration either. If you did not measure it, it is your opinion or speculation it was a thin skull first, and second it was about one twelfth of an inch thick?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now you had one ax and one hatchet, this hatchet which you speak of, given to you; both of those you sent to Prof. Wood?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So far as you know, he has got them in Pocasset now?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you do anything with the other two axes?
A. Yes Sir. I sent them too.
Q. He has got the whole hand of them?
A. Three axes and a hatchet, the whole four of them.
Q. On which one of those did you see upon the handle any appearance indicating to your mind, blood?
A. Upon one ax, and upon the hatchet.
Q. Upon the handle?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were both of them scraped?
A. No Sir.
Q. You said one of them was scraped?
A. The blade.
Q. Had the handle been scraped?
A. No Sir.
Q. Had it been washed?
A. I could not say.
Q. Did it look as though it had?
A. I could not say it had.
Q. Does it look now, so far as you know, as it did then?
A. I have not seen it for quite a while.
Q. So far as you know, you do not know of any changes?
A. No Sir.
Q. Which one looks as though the blade had been scraped?
A. The hatchet.
Q. Pretty sharp?
A. Very sharp.
Q. Freshly ground?
A. Looked as though it had been, yes sir.
Q. Did you try the edge of it?
A. On what?
Q. Any way to give you an opinion as to its sharpness.
A. I tried my thumb on it.
Q. It was very sharp?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Bright?
A. No Sir, I would not say it was bright.
Q. When you say it was freshly ground, do you mean ground within 24 hours?
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A. I would not say as to that length of time.
Q. The edge, from the grinding, had that shining fresh look?
A. Yes Sir, it had a shining look, a fresh look.
Q. Was it a new, or an old one in looks?
A. I should say it was a moderately new one. I should say it was bought within a year.
Q. Did it look as though it had been used?
A. Not a great deal.
Q. Have any rust on it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did it have rust on it?
A. On the blade.
Q. You mean on this sharp edge?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where on that, did you see any appearance of blood?
A. I saw some on the cutting edge, and also some on both sides.
Q. How far from the cutting edge?
A. Probably an inch and a half.
Q. How much?
A. Probably seven or eight spots in all.
Q. How big were these spots?
A. The size of a couple of heads of pins.
Q. Of what?
A. Of the heads of two pins.
Q. Each was the size of two pin heads altogether?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Fresh blood?
A. I did not swear that it was blood.
Q. Did not you feel of it; did not you touch it?
A. Touch that blood, no sir I did not.
Q. Or try to rub it off?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was it dry?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Would blood that had been gotten on within an hour be dry?
A. Within an hour, yes sir.
Q. It would?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Be dried up hard, would it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long does it take blood to dry?
A. I should think on such an ax as that, blood would be dry in half an hour.
Q. Did you examine the other ax, the blade of it, with reference to blood?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How much did you find on that?
A. I found more on the shaft of it, on the handle.

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Q. How much did you find on the blade of the ax?
A. I cannot tell you how much.
Q. Cannot you tell me how many spots? You did a few minutes ago on the hatchet.
A. I probably found ten to fifteen.
Q. 10 to 15 spots?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where?
A. On both sides.
Q. Near the cutting edge?
A. Yes, and some an inch and a half above it.
Q. How big were these spots?
A. About the same as the others.
Q. Any rust there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. A new or old ax?
A. I should say an old one.
Q. Was the blood dry?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did you know?
A. Because it looked dry.
Q. How much did you find on the helve?
A. Down near the blade of the ax there was a knot out of the handle of the ax, and that appeared to be filled with blood. That is, what looked like blood.
Q. How big was that knot?
A. About that size, took it right out of here.
Q. It is as big around as the end of that fan handle?
A. Yes Sir, take it right out where it fastens into the blade; there was a knot taken right out of the handle.
Q. In the helve of the ax, near the blade of the ax, there was a little knot about as big around as the handle of this fan that had come out of the helve?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In that place, it looked as though it was full of blood?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Dry, was not it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That would have dried up in half an hour, a cavity like that?
A. I think it would.
Q. Fresh blood, was it not?
A. It was quite black when I saw it.
Q. What does that mean, if it was quite black?
A. Old.
Q. Then that was not fresh blood?
A. I do not think it was.
Q. More than an hour or two old then?
A. I should say it was.
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Q. Then you do not attach any importance, so far as this ax is concerned, to what you saw in the knot hole of that handle, do you?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was there anythingelse upon this handle?
A. I think there were some little spots of blood on it, I am not quite positive.
Q. Did you look at it under a glass?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where?
A. Where did I look at it? Down stairs in the Marshal’s office.
Q. Down stairs here. When?
A. I could not tell you what day it was.
Q. Some days afterwards?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. With your microscope?
A. No Sir, simply with a magnifying glass.
Q. With your magnifying glass?
A. No, I think the marshal’s.
Q. Do you know how much it magnifies, how many diameters?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do I understand you discovered these spots on the handle of that ax the day of the murder when you were down stairs searching, and they were handed to you?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you discover the spots on the blade of either that, or the hatchet, at that time when they were handed to you?
A. No Sir, only as far as the blade of the hatchet was concerned; it looked at that time as though something had been scraped from it.
Q. At that particular time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The ax was a subsequent discovery?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. At that time, namely at the time of the search down in the cellar the day of the murder, you discovered upon the hatchet, when it was handed to you, these spots of blood, is that right?
A. No Sir, I do not think I did.
Q. When did you find these things?
A. I think it was the next day.
Q. Where?
A. I do not know whether at the house, or the marshal’s office.
Q. Who called your attention to it, anybody?
A. I think it was the Marshal.
Q. Who was present?
A. I do not know I am sure who was; I think the Mayor was present.
Q. The Mayor was there, and who else?
A. I do not think there was anybodyelse.
Q. Did either of them, hand you a glass and ask you to look at it?
A. Yes. I think I asked for a glass; the marshal handed me a glass.
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Q. You think you asked for one?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you examine them with the glass?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now as a result of that examination, what you have testified here, appeared, did it?
A. What do you mean by what I have testified?
Q. With reference to finding the spots and appearances?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I have been, not wilfully, misled by you, but I understood you as to when you examined these things. When did you first see these axes and the hatchet?
A. The day of the murder.
Q. Who handed them to you?
A. One of the officers.
Q. What officer?
A. I could not tell you, I think officer Mullaly, I wont be sure.
Q. Where were you when they were handed to you?
A. In the wash house in the cellar.
Q. That was the laundry where the sink and tubs were, where they washed the clothing?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were you down there searching yourself?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. These were brought to you by this officer?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you then take possession of them?
A. I think I told the officer to take them; I did not take them myself.
Q. Had you seen these things before they were brought to you?
A. I saw them lying on the floor, as I went down stairs.
Q. You did not look at them, or take them?
A. No Sir.
Q. It was shortly after, at that same search, while you were in the cellar, and while you were in the wash room of the cellar, these things were brought to you, and you looked at them, and handed them back to the officer.
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The next time you saw them was at the marshal’s office when the Mayor was present. They had been examining them, and you took the glass and looked at them yourself?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In your opinion, would that hatchet that you saw, furnish an adequate cause of these incised
wounds?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The wounds in both cases?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So far as you could see in both heads here, was there any different
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instrument used in causing these injuries, or was it one and the same instrument, in your opinion?
A. One and the same instrument could do it.
Q. Do you mean reasonably could?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you think it did?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In both cases you could count about thirty different blows could you not?
A. On each head?
Q. No. You have answered me one instrument could cause all these injuries, and you believe it did. In
both heads there were about thirty different blows.
A. Taking the two heads yes.
Q. All but four or five or six cut into the skull?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Would 24 or 5 blows, by an instrument of that kind, have any tendency to dull its edge?
A. In the solid bone I should think it would.
Q. The skull is solid bone?
A. Yes. But not very markedly, though.
Q. What not very markedly?
A. I do not think it would dull it very markedly, if it was good steel.
Q. This was good steel was it not?
A. I do not know.
Q. It would dull it some, how much? Perhaps you do not know anything more about that then I do?
A. No Sir.
Q. That is your opinion?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That this bright edge you saw on this hatchet down cellar, sharp as a razor, could notwithstanding its
appearance at the time it was handed to you, have been the instrument that cut through 25 times the
skulls of two different beings within an hour?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was this edge of this hatchet nicked that you think did it?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was the edge turned when you tried it with your thumb?
A. No Sir, I do not think the steel was as finely tempered as that, to have it turned.
Q. Do you understand a finely tempered steel turns more easily than one that is soft?
A. I should say it was not drawn down to as fine an edge.
Q. It did not have a razor’s edge then?
A. What I mean is the blade, the cutting edge, did not continue in as fine a condition for any great length of distance, that is for an inch or two inches as would enter; in other words, put it this way,

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it went down a regular ax edge for about an eighth of an inch, it was not sharpened for an inch up.
Q. I did not catch that, but I will accept it anyway. After this Thursday when these axes were delivered to you there that day or the next day did you make another search of the house, either alone or in company with anybody?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was that?
A. That was on the succeeding Saturday.
Q. That was the day of the funeral?
A. Yes Sir I believe so.
Q. Before or after the funeral?
A. After.
Q. Had you been there on Friday at all?
A. I think I had; I do not know just the days; but I know I have been there several times.
Q. I want you to come down to the next time you were there to do anything?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Thursday you had the search on the first floor and the cellar, did you go up stairs and search around?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What time Thursday?
A. The same continuous search.
Q. What did you do up stairs?
A. I do not think I went in any room, excepting the clothes room, which is in the front of the building, and the bed chamber of the murdered couple. I did not go into Miss Lizzie’s room.
Q. You mean the chamber where they slept, which was in the rear of the house and over the roomwhich corresponds to the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went into a closet up stairs you said?
A. A clothes closet yes sir.
Q. That clothes closet was a large closet over the front hall, was it not?
A. Yes, immediately over the front door.
Q. A large one, with a door opening into it from that upper front hall?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. A window as big nearly as one of these opening out of it on to the street?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was thoroughly light?
A. It was rather dark, on account of the clothes hanging, obstructing the light. I think the clothes hung the whole length of the room.
Q. Were clothes hanging in front of the windows in that closet?
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A. I think they were.
Q. Do you mean to say you regarded that closet, that was the length and size of the entry, and had a window in it as big as one of these, as a dark closet?
A. I did not say it was dark.
Q. What did you see there?
A. A lot of clothing hung up there.
Q. Women’s clothing hung up in well ordered array?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. All hung on little clothes hooks?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Dress after dress?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How many?
A. I did not count them.
Q. Fifteen?
A. I do not know.
Q. Would you say there was not fifteen there?
A. I would not say any number.
Q. How long was this closet, as long as from you to me?
A. Yes sir.
Q. As wide as from you to the bench?
A. Just about.
Q. With a big window looking out of it on to the street?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Around it were dresses hanging on two rows of hooks, one front and one back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What else did you do there besides look around, examine the dresses?
A. No Sir.
Q. You looked did you not?
A. Yes sir, those dresses that were on the outside I looked at, not carefully at all.
Q. Who went with you into that closet?
A. I do not know whether it was the Marshal or Mr. Jennings himself.
Q. He was there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. The day of the murder when you went up stairs?
A. I meant the Saturday.
Q. Now have you been telling me right with reference to Thursday, that you went into that closet?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did anybody go with you?
A. I think there must have been, we went together, I think Mr. Mullaly and Assistant Marshal Fleet.
Q. You went through that closet?

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A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you take anything away?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you find anything you wanted to take away?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you search all through the clothing?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Then you went back into the room where Mr. and Mrs. Borden slept in the rear of the house?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That took you through Miss Lizzie’s room?
A. I think I went down stairs and up there.
Q. Did not you search Lizzie’s room then?
A. I was not with the party at that time.
Q. Was it not searched at that time?
A. They told me so.
Q. Who went in there?
A. I do not know.
Q. What officers were in there then?
A. I do not know who.
Q. Was that before she went up stairs?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. About the time, was it not?
A. I could not tell you positively.
Q. What did you do or see done in the rear room where Mr. and Mrs. Borden had slept?
A. We searched that room, searched the closets.
Q. There was a closet opening out of that, a room where the safe was?
A. It was a big room.
Q. The house was once used as two tenements?
A. Yes sir.
Q. In one room, a little office, there was a safe?
A. Yes sir.
Q. In another room there was still the convenience for a pantry?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You searched all through those?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What else did you see done that Thursday?
A. I do not think we did anything else that morning.
Q. What did you do that afternoon?
A. I had the room photographed.
Q. Who did that?
A. James A. Walsh.
Q. Did you have the bodies photographed?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Have you the photograph here?
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A. No sir.
Q. Where is the photograph?
A. At my house.
Q. Will you produce that?
A. If you wish.
Q. Please do tomorrow. What else did you have photographed?
A. The position of both bodies, the rooms, the heads of the bodies; that was all.
Q. What else did you do that Thursday?
A. That afternoon I opened both bodies, and took the stomachs out.
Q. What else did you do that day? That photograph was in the afternoon?
A. About three o’clock, yes sir, that is what causes the discrepancy in my record of that opening, andthe I told you. I did it about half past three; and in the record it is three; that is because the photograph was taken.
Q. What do you mean, you made a mistake setting it down in your records?
A. Yes sir.
Q. It was half past three, and not three, that is the time when you removed the stomachs, and sealed them up, and had them sent to Prof. Wood?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That is the time you made the incision?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Up to that time you had not done it?
A. No sir. In the beginning I took the two specimens of milk, I took the Thursday morning’s milk, and
Wednesday evening, or the mornings, I do not know which.
Q. You took the two specimens you were told had been left there that morning, and what you found in the pantry somewhere?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Who gave them to you?
A. Bridget Sullivan, the servant girl.
Q. What did you do with those specimens?
A. Sent them all to Prof. Wood.
Q. Two specimens of milk?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Half past three that afternoon you made this autopsy and had the photographing done, and removed these things, and sealed them up, and sent them to Prof. Wood. How cold were the bodies then?
A. Mr. Borden’s surface temperature was what you might call cold. Mrs. Borden’s, on opening, was quite warm, due to the fat.
Q. That was due to her being fat, was it not?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You come back now to the theory which you stated here a little
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while ago, that if two bodies were killed at practically the same time, a thin body would cool sooner than a fat body?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That is the reason there was a difference in the temperature between herself and Mr. Borden?
A. That is the internal temperature.
Q. Where does the external temperature come from, if not the internal temperature?
A. It does certainly.
Q. But if the internal temperature in her body was higher, of course the external temperature would be higher, owing to her being a stout, fat person?
A. Well, it was not.
Q. It was not higher?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was it lower?
A. No, they were both about the same, that is at half past three in the afternoon.
Q. How did you take the temperature in the afternoon?
A. Simply by the sense of touch.
Q. Assuming that is the head of Mr. Borden, wont you mark on that, so far as you can mark upon it, the injuries to the face, where they were, the direction they went, and the
Injury to the skull, for I understand they were all head and face injuries.
(Witness marks with a pen upon a small doll.)
A. That is as near as I can get it.
Q. Have you given me the skull injuries, as far as there were any?
A. Mostly here. You cannot see it very well, it is glued.
Q. Mr. Borden then lay upon the sofa, with these things under his head, the pillow, and the covering over it, something like that, did he not?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Putting the left side down, and the right side up?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That brought his head toward the front side of the house, and opposite, horizontally, the parlor door?
A. Yes.
Q. Between the arm of the sofa, upon which his head rested, and the parlor door, there was a door which swung into the dining room?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Swinging from the sitting room into the dining room?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And swinging away from the sofa where his head lay, or the other way?
A. The other way, I think. The plan will show that. It swung to the right hand.
Q. It swung from the side of the door nearest to the arm into the dining room? I am trying to get at the space between the head of the
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sofa, I call it the head of the sofa, because his head lay there, and the parlor door, there was first this open door of the dining room, and second the wall space between the door frame and the parlor door?
A. Yes.
Q. In you opinion that is about five feet?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now upon that parlor door, which was five feet away, you found how many spots of blood?
A. I should think probably seven or eight on the door and on the jamb.
Q. That is the frame?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Which frame, nearest the dining room, or nearest the entrance to the hall?
A. The dining room.
Q. That would be in about a straight line from his head?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was not it on the corner of that frame of the parlor door that this spot of blood was found, the one you are talking about now, one spot on the frame of the door leading into the parlor. Which was nearest the dining room?
A. I did not see one spot in particular, I think there were three or four.
Q. Was there a particular spot on that frame of the door of the parlor which was nearest the dining room, on the edge?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was not the finish around the frame or casing of the door?
A. Yes, the ordinary casing.
Q. So it made a little groove, a little beading or moulding?
A. Yes sir.
Q. On the inside, I understand you to say, or on the dining room side, of the frame of the door leading from the sitting room into the dining room, and on that part of the frame, which was nearest the parlor and farthest from his head, of that door frame, you found this string of spots?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where was the big end of those spots?
A. It was one spot.
Q. It was a stringing spot; where was its big end?
A. Nearest the sitting room.
Q. Was the big end uppermost or lowermost?
A. Uppermost.
Q. Did the spot slant down towards the dining room?
A. Yes sir.
Q. If you project a fluid body, or if you force a stream, and the spot strikes, where is the big end of the spot going to be, nearest to you or farthest from you? I throw a spot so from me, I throw

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a liquid which goes upon the door frame in spots; is the big end of that spot to be nearest to me, or farthest from me?
A. If you strike it against a surface, the same as that wall there, the big end would be above.
Q. The big end would be farthest from me?
A. No sir.
Q. Nearest to me?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Is that your theory of experiment?
A. I cannot say, I have never tried it.
Q. Suppose I throw a fluid, the force of the fluid being upwards, and it goes upon the wall, the direction being from below, up, where is the big end of that spot going to be?
A. The big end will be nearest the bottom.
Q. That is to say, the big end is always nearest to you, is it?
A. It just depends upon the direction you take. It all depends upon whether it strikes —
Q. I am assuming it strikes first that way, going along laterally against the wall; them in my second question I am assuming it shoots upwards. Where would the big end strike?
A. At the bottom.
Q. Suppose I throw it from above down, where would the big end of the spot be?
A. On the top.
Q. Have you tried any experiments of that kind?
A. I cannot say I have tried it; I have observed many times.
Q. Observed it in what?
A. In water and blood stains.
Q. Have you actually thrown blood to see how its spots would be?
A. No sir; but for instance in an operation a little spurting artery would spread against a wall.
Q. You theory is that the larger end indicates the direction from which the fluid came?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Therefore in your opinion, the blood upon the frame of the door, inside of the dining room, farthest from the man’s head, which went in this direction horizontally, downward, the big end up, must have come from above?
A. It came from above, yes sir.
Q. Not from below, upwards?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you examine these spots on the paper above the sofa where Mr. Borden lay with anything but the naked eye?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ever apply a microscopis test to it at all?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you notice the carpet where Mrs. Borden lay as to the style and pattern?

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A. It was a very large pattern, a kind of a reddish color.
Q. Was not it a clotted blood color?
A. It was a blood color.
Q. Was not it clotted blood color too?
A. It was not clotted blood color.
Q. Any part of it?
A. No sir.
Q. Was not it dark?
A. It was not as dark as dark clotted blood.
Q. Whether it was not so dark that it simulated it, so that it resembled ordinary clotted blood, rather than fresh blood?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where is that piece of the door you took off, or caused to be taken off?
A. Locked up down stairs.
Q. Will you produce it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. I should like to see it now, and the piece of plastering, and the moulding. Did you take a piece of moulding from the parlor chamber, or guest chamber?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You removed a piece of plastering in the guest chamber?
A. Wall paper; of course a little piece of plastering with it, so to keep it together.
Q. Was that on the wall between the window frame and the bureau?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And three or four feet from the floor?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you look on the screen of that window?
A. Yes sir.
Q. There was a screen in the window, was there not?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see any blood spots on it?
A. Not that I could say were blood.
Q. Was the window open?
A. I could not tell you that.
Q. How did you get at the screen?
A. It was an inside screen.
Q. Did you look at the window?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you raise the screen before you looked at the window?
A. Yes sir.
Q. The window was shut was it not?
A. I mean afterwards, not at that particular time.
Q. Did you find any spots on the window?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you find any spots on the ceiling there?
A. No sir.

Page 164
Q. What spots did you find on the clothing of the bed?
A. Mostly on the sham; I do not recollect any on the counterpane.
Q. Where are the shams?
A. I dont know.
Q. Who took them?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Did you see anybody?
A. No sir.
Q. Are they in your possession?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you order anybody to take them?
A. No sir.
Q. Has anybody taken the bed spread, or any of those things there?
A. Not that I am aware of.
Q. Yet the sham had some spots of blood on it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How many?
A. Three or four I think.
Q. Is that the jamb of the door? (Produced by the Marshal.) Is that the way it went, suppose you go in at the door?
A. That is it exactly.
Q. When I go through the door so, supposing this sofa is here, with the head that way, when you turn and go into the dining room so, then this particular door frame you spoke of would be this direction from the head?
A. No, you do not go in that way.
Q. That is the way I want to go so to understand it.
A. That is the way.
Q. Then the door goes in that way from the sitting room into the dining room?
A. Yes sir.
Q. This is part of the frame of the door?
A. Yes sir.
Q. This piece here was on the dining room side?
A. That is what I am trying to make out.
Q. That is what I want to know.
A. That is the position sir.
Q. Here is the sofa here?
A. Yes.
Q. The door goes in here, and the head is here?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where is this string you speak of?
(Witness points to it.)
Q. It is on the inside of the moulding, the dining room side?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Is that in the condition that you found it now?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Is everything else there that you saw at the time?
Page 165
A. Yes sir.
Q. Were any other spots of blood there?
A. Not as I know of.
Q. Do you know whether that is blood or not?
A. I am pretty sure it is.
Q. Do you know anything about it; have you tried it?
A. No sir.
Q. It does not look like it?
A. Well, it has faded.
Q. This is a piece of plastering that came from the room up stairs, as I understand. There is a little something there, what is that?
A. That is blood.
Q. Do you think it is?
A. I should say so.
Q. Have you looked at it through a glass?
A. No sir.
Q. Which side was that when you took it out?
A. The way it is now.
Q. This side up?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Then that must have come from above, down, according to your theory of spots?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any moulding taken off of the base board in the guest chamber between the bureau and the head of the bed?
A. No sir, not that I know of.
Q. Between the bureau and the window?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now having got the location and direction of that spot in the dining room, and the spots on the door which you said were in the arc of a circle, eighty six of them, how was this arc with reference to the room?
A. The other way.
Q. Running from near the head over towards the feet, or towards the kitchen?
A. Towards the kitchen.
Q. You have marked on this little figure here, on the right hand side, a number of parallel lines?
A. The left hand side.
Q. A number of parallel lines, those represent the blows?
A. Yes. (Mr. Borden’s manikin)
Q. These blows, or the wounds, were all incised wounds?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And they ran in a general direction parallel with the blows?
A. Yes sir.
Q. The incised wound was the one which began on the forehead and cut through the eye, was it not?
A. I think it was. I dont know but what this was the distinct one.

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Q. You refer to the one by the side of the nose?
A. Yes sir; I cannot say positively.
Q. How much difference between the long incised one that came down the left hand side through the nose, and the one through the eye?
A. About half an inch.
Q. They were about four inches long?
A. Four and a half.
Q. The one that came down through the eye, was at the outer angle here?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Generally on a line parallel with the nose?
A. Yes sir but glanced inwards.
Q. It began here, and when it got down here near the chin it was nearer the central line of the face than where it started?
A. No sir, commencing on the outside like that, it went in that way; it cut the eye right in two.
Q. Did it cut the eye through the center or the side?
A. On the side.
Q. It cut the eye diagonally in half, beginning at the outer angle of the eye?
A. Yes, nearest that way.
Q. It pursued a right line down the face, but cut in here?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That was on the right hand side of the face?
A. The left side.
Q. Did that cut into the skull or the brain?
A. No sir, it took a piece out.
Q. It took out a piece over the eye?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was that wound a fatal wound?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How many wounds were there between this wound here, as you recollect, and the other wound here, nearest the nose, how many were there in all, taking that as the uppermost one?
A. Ten or eleven.
Q. But right in here, all cutting wounds?
A. Yes sir; I mean the whole number were about eleven on Mr. Borden.
Q. How many wound were there, other than these cutting wounds on the face that came in here, how many over the left ear?
A. I think four. I got in too many there, right on the face. An the rest were all extended into the head.
Q. Those were all incised wounds, except that crushing wound which you speak of, which in your opinion was one blow?
A. Yes sir, it could be one, or could be done with the others, as I spoke of in Mrs. Borden.
Q. What was the general direction of those blows above the ear?

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A. They were diagonal, slightly diagonal from these; that is, almost parallel.
Q. Almost parallel with these blows here?
A. Yes sir, having the same general direction, and a little more diagonal.
Q. Where were these wounds on the face deepest?
A. I think the depth was about the same in the whole length.
Q. Where it begun and ended, it was practically the same depth?
A. I should say practically the same depth.
(Mr. Knowlton.) Did one come down below the mouth?
A. Yes, one came down into the chin.
Q. From Mr. Borden’s feet, was the kitchen door?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Were there any spots on the door frame of that door?
A. Yes sir.
Q. The part of the frame nearest the dining room?
A. No sir, the other one, the south jamb.
Q. The south frame of the door?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you take that door frame off?
A. No sir.
Q. That is there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where was the blood spots on that frame larger, at the top or bottom?
A. I only saw one there, that was larger at the top.
Q. Then the direction of that drop must have come from above, downwards, in your opinion?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you go there Friday?
A. I could not tell you positively; I think I did. I would not say I did not.
Q. What did you do Friday?
A. I cannot remember just what I did Friday.
Q. Did you search in there Friday?
A. No.
Q. Did you direct anybody to search there Friday?
A. No sir.
Q. Was anything brought from there to you on that Friday?
A. I do not remember.
Q. Did you go there Saturday?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What time, morning or afternoon or evening?
A. Afternoon.
Q. Who went with you?
A. I went there alone; but I met there Marshal Hilliard, Mr. Jennings, Detective Seaver, and Assistant Marshal Fleet.
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Q. Did you search then?
A. Yes sir.
Q. (Mr. Jennings.) Was Captain Desmond there too?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where did you search?
A. From attic to cellar.
Q. Did you go through the chimney, did you break into the chimney?
A. Not while I was there.
Q. Did you cause it to be done; did you know it was done?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you take up bricks and floors?
A. I do not think we took up any floors.
Q. Did you take up bricks in the cellar?
A. I think two or three were up when we were down there, had been up before.
Q. Did you go into the closet over the front hall that day and search?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was any clothing given to you?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Who gave it to you?
A. I think Mr. Jennings.
Q. Where did he get it?
A. I dont know. He said he got it from Miss Lizzie Borden.
Q. What was it, a dress skirt and an under white skirt?
A. Yes sir and her waist.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What do you mean by a waist, an outside or under waist?
A. A blouse waist.
Q. Where are those garments?
A. Prof. Wood has them all, so far as I know; I gave them to him.
Q. Did you examine those at the time?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you find some blood on them?
A. One blood spot on the skirt.
Q. How big was it?
A. The size of a good pin head.
Q. That is on the white underskirt?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Do you know whether it came from without in, or from inside out?
A. From without, in.
Q. How do you know that?
A. Simply because the meshes of the cloth on the outside were filled with blood, and it had hardly
penetrated on the inside.
Q. Did you look at it under a glass?
A. No sir.
Q. What do you mean, an ordinary pin?
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A. Yes, a little larger than that.
Q. You do not mean a shawl pin?
A. No sir.
Q. A common pin?
A. Yes sir.
Q. It was on the skirt?
A. The petticoat.
Q. Where was it?
A. Here.
Q. How far up from the bottom of the skirt?
A. Probably a foot.
Q. Was it as long as the dress or whether it was worn shorter?
A. I could not say that.
Q. You could not say whether that came within six inches of the ground or not?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you find any blood on either of the other garments?
A. I found on the dress skirt a smooch, you might call it, I would not say whether it was blood, or was not.
Q. Where was the smooch?
A. Going into the pocket, just in front of the pocket, or behind it, I presume you call it?
Q. It is pretty hard to tell where a woman’s pocket is. With reference to this particular pocket, where was that, was it the bottom or upper part of the opening in the pocket?
A. The upper part.
Q. Near the upper part of the opening going into the pocket; was it above it?
A. No sir, it was about the center of the pocket.
Q. Here is my pocket?
A. It was about there.
Q. Then it was a little to one side, and near the top?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That was a smooch?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you examine it under a glass?
A. No sir. Yes I did examine that under a glass.
Q. Where?
A. Down stairs.
Q. The same glass that examined the ax handles?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was there when that was examined?
A. I think Prof. Wood was there; it was when I was giving them to him.
Q. How long after you had that given to you, did you give them to him?
A. I do not know whether it was Monday or Tuesday.

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Q. How did it look under the glass, did you then think it was blood?
A. I did not come to any conclusion about it at all.
Q. You had no opinion about it?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you have anything else given to you?
A. Yes, I had a waist. I found nothing on that that I could see.
Q. This blouse waist?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Worn with the same dress skirt, as I understand.
A. Yes, not the same material.
Q. There was this dress skirt, and blouse waist, and underskirt?
A. Yes sir, and shoes and stockings.
Q. You did not get those at the same time?
A. No sir.
Q. You went to this girl afterwards for her shoes and stockings?
A. No sir, the Marshal sent for them.
Q. What else was done Saturday?
A. I think that is about all.
Q. Sunday did you let the house rest, or did you go there?
A. I could not tell you; I do not hardly think I went there Sunday.
Q. Did anybody go there on Sunday, so far as you know?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Did you go Monday?
A. I could not tell you accurately the dates I went there. I know I went there very frequently.
Q. What for?
A. One day for measurements, another day for a piece of carpet, another day to count the spots, another day to see if there was anything I overlooked. I always had all the privileges that were necessary for me to have.
Q. You were afforded every privilege to go everywhere in the house, to examine every piece of
clothing, and every trunk and drawer?
A. I did not ask for all that. I was afforded everything I asked for.
Q. You ever had this girl’s shoes given to you?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you not in the examination go through every trunk and box and drawer?
A. Yes sir — not I personally.
Q. But you saw it done?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You looked under the bricks in the cellar, if there were any taken up?
A. Yes, made a good search.
Q. Now some day, Monday or Tuesday afterwards, you went there and asked for Miss Lizzie’s shoes?
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A. No sir.
Q. The Marshal went under your direction?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You do not know that she took them off and gave them to him?
A. Yes sir, I understand they were the shoes she wore that day.
Q. And her stockings?
A. Yes sir.
Q. The same stockings?
A. Yes sir, so she said.
Q. What did you do with them?
A. I sent them off.
Q. Did you examine them before they went?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Any blood on them?
A. I could not say.
Q. Any smooch that looked like blood?
A. It is pretty hard to tell. There was blood on her shoes; whether it was human blood, or blood that was not dried out in the tanning of the leather, I could not say.
Q. Where was that blood, were not the shoes lined?
A. In the sole.
Q. Where they were worn?
A. No, the ball of the foot generally bears down in one particular part; around that.
Q. Also on the heel?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now about the stockings, was there any blood on them?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Have you told me the last thing that you got from there, or the last search that you have made, or that you did, or caused to be done by virtue of your office?
A. I have. It was Monday the mason went.
Q. He is the man that went to open the chimney?
A. Yes sir. I would not be positive.
Q. Miss Lizzie and her sister were there?
A. I did not go with him.
Q. Did not they go around and point out places, and show you where you could search and look?
A. On Saturday Miss Lizzie and Emma both.
Q. They went around with you?
A. No sir.
Q. They told you did they not?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you not make a thorough search, of course a further search, after this thorough Saturday search, on Monday or Tuesday?
A. I do not think so.
Q. In the cellar?

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A. No.
Q. At the time when the mason went there Monday or Tuesday?
A. I was not there.
Q. You do not know as a matter of fact whether there was another search made there or not?
A. No sir, I do not.
Q. I understand you to say, with reference to the hatchet and the ax, you did not discover the blood, or your attention was not called to it, until the next day or a day or two after when they were shown to you there in the house; but it was at the Marshal’s office here?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see the hair before that time?
A. No sir.
Q. After this had been brought down from the house to the Marshal’s office, and when you were there, your attention was called to some hair?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How many hairs?
A. Two.
Q. What were they on?
A. The hatchet.
Q. Whereabouts?
A. One was almost at the junction of the handle with the head; the other was on the blade. I think about the middle of it.
Q. How were they stuck on, or how did they stay there?
A. I do not know. The one on the handle was stuck on by being caught in the roughened fibers of the wood. The one on the blade was stuck on there either by blood or rust, I dont know which.
Q. Visible to the naked eye?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How did it happen you did not see them up there at the house?
A. Because I did not examine them carefully enough.
Q. Long or short hairs?
A. One was very short.
Q. How short?
A. I should judge three quarters of an inch; the other about an inch and a half.
Q. The three quarters of an inch one, where was that?
A. On the handle.
Q. That was caught in the roughened surface of the fiber?
A. Yes sir.
Q. White or brown?
A. White, that was.
Q. How white?
A. White or grey.
Q. Which was it?
A. Grey.

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Q. Did you look at it under the microscope?
A. I looked at it with a magnifying glass.
Q. What color was it under the magnifying glass?
A. The same, grey.
Q. Do not you know that the magnifying glass or microscope do not have anything to do with color?
A. I did not know they did.
Q. Can you tell anything about color?
A. I think you can, anything you can get right into the field.
Q. If you cannot get it into the field, you cannot see it?
A. I mean to cover the entire field.
Q. A hair does not?
A. No sir. I think you can tell the difference between a black and white hair.
Q. Does a microscope help you to get at the pigment or coloring matter of hair, or only as to its size and dimensions?
A. I think mostly as to its size and structure.
Q. What was this hair, a human hair?
A. I do not know.
Q. A broken off hair?
A. Yes sir, it looked as though it had been broken off.
Q. Both ends broken off?
A. No sir, one end was a fine one.
Q. Did one end look like a root end?
A. No sir, one was a fine end, and the other a broken end.
Q. Three quarters of an inch, is that a measurement or estimate?
A. An estimate.
Q. Tell me on that pencil about where the hair was?
(Witness points.)
Q. About down to where the pencil was sharpened?
A. Yes sir.
Q. The other one was how long?
A. About an inch and a half.
Q. Indicate that one.
(Witness points.)
Q. That was grey, was not it?
A. No sir.
Q. What was that?
A. That was brownish.
Q. What do you call that color?
A. I call that kind of a light.
Q. Darker than that?
A. Yes sir, the other was darker than that; that is a kind of a light color.
Q. That was the longest one on the blade?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Human hair?
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A. I could not say.
Q. A complete hair?
A. I could not tell you that; I think one end was broken.
Q. How near the edge of the hatchet was this longest or dark brown hair?
A. I cannot remember exactly just where it was; it occurs to me that it was on the upper side of the ax.
Q. Do you mean the head side?
A. That is as you put the ax down, with the head down, it was on somewhere here, I am not quite positive that is the way it occurs to me.
Q. Take that for the blade, and here is the helve.
A. I think it was somewhere about here, I am not quite positive.
Q. Up near the mauling end, up where the long claw was, on that part?
A. No sir.
Q. You call that the edge then?
A. Yes sir. That is an ax, there is about where I think it was.
Q. That is half way between the edge and the handle?
A. Yes sir.
Q. I do not understand it is on the blade surface, but on the edge?
A. It was not on the cutting surface.
Q. Where in your opinion, taking the case of Mr. Borden, and these spots that you have described on the kitchen door, on the inner frame of the dining room door the farthest from the head, on the semi circular appearance of the more circular range of spots on the wall, and spots on the kitchen door, and on the frame of it farthest from the dining room, together with the direction of the blow, and the place of the blow on Mr. Borden’s head, did the assailant of Mr. Borden stand, or put himself, when he delivered these blows?
A. I think he stood behind him, behind his head.
Q. Between the head of the sofa and the parlor door?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Whereabouts, right close to the sofa, or some little way from it?
A. I should judge some little way from it, though I don’t know. It might be right up to the sofa, I would not say that, because his head was in a foot at least from the outside of the end of the arm.
Q. You put this assailant there?
A. I should think he stood in a position about midway in the dining room door.
Q. Midway of the opening of the dining room door, but not in the dining room door?
A. Not necessarily; but I think is that position.
Q. If spots were thrown upon the wall over the sofa in the way you have described, and thrown upon the parlor door, which would be back of where this man stood, and upon that part of the frame of the dining room door which was farthest from the head of Mr. Borden, and therefore behind or beyond where this man stood, or this person stood,

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would not necessarily the assailant have received more or less spots of blood from these blows?
A. In all probability he would, not necessarily many.
Q. Taking into account the fact that there were eighty six, or the largest number of spots that you have told of, above the head, on the wall in the semi circular range, do not you think that the person who delivered these blows would have received more of the spots upon the upper part of the body than in the lower part?
A. Not in that position, no.
Q. How could the spots, when they stood at the head of the sofa, or near the head of the sofa, have struck their feet or below the waist even; how could as many, as would have gone to the upper part of the assailant’s body?
A. I do not see how hardly any could go below the waist, standing in that position.
Q. That is to say, in your opinion, if the assailant got blood upon him, he would receive more blood from the waist up, than he would from the waist, below?
A. Yes sir, you are speaking of Mr. Borden, yes sir.
Q. I suppose that would mean that it would be liable to strike the hair, if the person had nothing on the head; that is it would be liable to strike the upper part of the body or person then exposed?
A. Yes sir, but I do not think a great deal in taking that position, the position of Mr. Borden, and giving the position I have stated of the assailant. There were no spots went, hardly, in that direction, that is as far as we could see, and I do not think many went, that we have not seen that is, towards the parlor; so the assailant might not get scarcely any spots, if any.
Q. Do you mean to put yourself on record as saying the assailant could stand there, and not get less than ten spots on his clothes and hair?
A. Not many of them, because it is the other way, towards his feet and on the wall.
Q. Are not they on the wall directly above his head in a semi circle?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Would not that show they followed the direction of the ax as they left the wound?
A. No sir, just the opposite.
Q. Followed the ax after it left the wound?
A. No, those spots on the wall right above his head I think were done by the first blow severing some artery that gave those; I do not think they were done by an ax.
Q. Would not an ax, the artery being severed, have gone into the bleeding wound and got blood on it?
A. Certainly.

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Q. If it was bloody when it was lifted out of the wound, would not it throw it in some direction or other?
A. Yes, but not in that direction where the eighty six spots were; throw it backwards.
Q. Might it not throw it upwards?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Might it not throw it on the man?
A. Yes sir.
Q. The person stood, according to your theory, between the sofa and the parlor door?
A. Yes sir, and more towards the dining room door.
Q. Then he would be in the way of the spots that got to the dining room door frame and the parlor door frame?
A. Only from the ax.
(August 26th, 1892.)
Q. Did you measure at any time, Doctor, the length of the handle of the hatchet that you have
described?
A. No sir.
Q. Have you an opinion about its length?
A. I could not say, I should think it would be about probably eighteen inches or two feet, eighteen inches probably.
Q. Do you mean from the hatchet to the end of the handle?
A. No sir, from the blade to the end of the handle, the inner edge of the blade.
Q. Did you at any time measure the length of the edge, that is the breadth of the blade of the hatchet?
A. No sir, I did not.
Q. Did you weigh it?
A. No sir.
Q. Have you any opinion about its weight?
A. No, I should think it weighed from three to five pounds.
Q. And the handle was about eighteen inches to two feet long?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What is your theory as to the position the assailant of Mrs. Borden was in when these blows on the back of the head, that you have described, I do not limit them to the back of the head, were given?
A. My impression is —
Q. Your opinion I am asking for.
A. Yes. That they were given while Mrs. Borden was lying in the position in which she was found, with the murderer standing over her.
Q. If the murderer was standing over her, using the hatchet you have described, with the handle about eighteen inches to two feet long, would the assailant have used, in your opinion, one or two hands to inflict these blows?
A. I would not be prepared to say that.
Q. Would he have been obliged to stoop over in order to give the
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blows?
A. Certainly, he would not have been obliged to stand erect.
Q. In a bending position?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Taking into account the average length of the handle of the hatchet, and the average length of the human arm, whereabouts over the prone body of Mrs. Borden, would the assailant have had to stand, in your opinion?
A. I should judge about over the hips.
Q. Then the assailant would have been obliged to be, would he not, astride the hips?
A. Yes sir.
Q. With one foot between the body and the bureau, and the other foot between the body and the frame of the bed?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Standing in that position do you judge that the spots which you found came from the hatchet, or dropped from the person of the assailant; I mean the spots which you found on the paper, the moulding of the base board between the bureau and the window, and also upon the bureau drawer?
A. Those near the window I think were struck while Mrs. Borden was near the window.
Q. In your opinion they could not be adequately accounted for by a person standing in the way you have described, and giving the blows you have described?
A. No sir, I do not see very well how they could.
Q. Would a person standing in the way you have described to give the blows, almost of necessity be spattered with blood himself?
A. Yes sir.
Q. In your opinion what part of them would have received these spots of blood?
A. I should think the lower part of the body.
Q. That is below the waist?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Bending over like this?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Would not the upper portion of the body also have received some spots?
A. Possibly it could, but the probability is —
Q. Possibly? Go on sir, I am reminded I interrupted you before you had finished your answer.
A. Possibly, but the probability would be against it.
Q. Would the hands, either of them, or both of them, have received any of these drops of blood, in your opinion?
A. Possibly.
Q. Possibly?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You do not admit the probability of it, do you?

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A. No sir.
Q. As a matter of fact, did you find any spots or drops of blood upon the frame of the sash of the window in this guest room chamber which was just beyond the bureau?
A. I saw what appeared to be blood at first, but careful examination showed they were on the outside of the window, and therefore could not very well be blood.
Q. When you say on the outside of the window, do you mean by that on the outside of the glass of the window, or the sash?
A. The outside of the window, of the glass.
Q. The question I put to you was whether you discovered any spots of blood upon the sash of that window?
A. I do not recollect that I did sir.
Q. Was not your attention called to it by some person or persons at the time when you were there searching and examining?
A. My attention was called to what appeared to be blood, what the person thought was blood, one day when I was there.
Q. Is that the blood you have already spoken of, as being outside of the glass of the window?
A. Yes sir, one also I think on the frame inside of the window.
Q. Do you mean the frame of the window, or the sash of the window?
A. The window frame.
Q. Where was the spot on the inside of the window?
A. I could not tell you, I did not pay much attention to it; I examined it at the time.
Q. You do not think it was blood?
A. No sir.
Q. Is it there now?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Did you as any time give directions or permission to any member of the family to wash or clean the paint in any of the rooms?
A. No sir.
Q. Did not you down stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did not someone ask or suggest that they might clean up the wood work of the sitting room, and was not it given, to be done?
A. No sir, not as I recollect. I recollect I gave positive orders for it not to be done.
Q. That was afterwards; I mean early, after you had taken a view, and after you had counted these spots. Do you remember at any time seeing Mrs. Holmes there at the house?
A. Yes sir, several times.
Q. Was it immediately after this occurrence?
A. I think so, I think I saw her the same day, I wont be sure.
Q. Do not you now recollect that you gave her permission, I mean in substance, permission or leave to clean up around there and re-arrange things, and that such work was done in the way of cleaning the

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paint?
A. I do not recollect it sir.
Q. Are you prepared to say that you did not give any such permission or direction?
A. I do not recollect having given any such permission.
Q. If Mrs. Holmes should say so, you would not be inclined to dispute her?
A. I should certainly be inclined to dispute her as to her understanding of it, and say that there was amisunderstanding.
Q. Do you claim that any member of the family, or any person there, willfully cleaned up, or changed the situation of things?
A. I am not prepared to say whether they did or not.
Q. Any one of the ladies of the house who were there at those times in this living room, this sitting room where he was found, where you found these spots of blood upon the kitchen door and the parlor door, are you prepared to say any one of them willfully removed those spots?
A. There were some spots removed.
Q. Would you think they did any of them willfully remove any of the spots?
A. I should say they did.
Q. Willfully, I mean.
A. I should say they did.
Q. Who?
A. I do not know.
Q. When was it willfully done?
A. Probably the next day.
Q. After the killing?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. From what door or place were those spots removed?
A. From the parlor door.
Q. Had you counted them before they were removed, and ascertained their location?
A. Not accurately.
Q. Had you counted them before they were removed?
A. Yes Sir, I had.
Q. Then you knew the number?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How many less are there now than there were at the time of the killing?
A. I could not say.
Q. How many were on the parlor door in all?
A. I think eight spots on the parlor door, and on the north jamb of the door.
(Mr. Knowlton.) They were on the sitting room side of the door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. All you are discussing with reference to the parlor door was on the sitting room side?

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A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were there any other spots removed from any other place in the sitting room, so far as you know?
A. Not that I am aware of, no sir.
Q. When this hatchet was found on the day of the murder, as you have described, do you know how many different people handled it?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did a number of people handle it?
A. I do not think so. When the officer showed it to me, I told him to take charge of it.
Q. I am asking you whether you saw other people looking at it there in the house.
A. No Sir.
Q. Do not you recollect it was laid upon a table there in a room of the house?
A. I could not say, sir.
Q. Do not you recollect that it was brought up, and laid upon the table in the kitchen or the dining room, and all of them were, the hatchet, and all the axes?
A. No sir, I do not know.
Q. Do you know whether it was or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you recollect seeing people looking at them, and trying them, and rubbing them to see whether it was rust, or what it was?
A. No Sir I do not.
Q. Either upon the axes, any of them, or the hatchet?
A. No Sir, I do not.
Q. Now you say you first noticed the blood the next day, or the day after, at the Marshal’s office, when your attention was called to it, or you were asked to look at it, when the Mayor was there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that the time when you examined the handle for the first time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that the time when you say the handle looked as if it had been washed, or the blade?
A. No Sir, I said that at the day of the murder at the house.
Q. When it was found, you say it looked as though it had been washed?
A. I do not know as I used the word “washed”; I said scraped.
Q. Did not you say “scraped or washed,” yesterday?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you mean it looked as though it had been washed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What has been washed.
A. The blade of the hatchet.
Q. I have understood you to say, whatever else there was on that blade, it was rusty?
A. Yes Sir.

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Q. Was it damp?
A. It was dry when I saw it.
Q. Then it was not damp?
A. No Sir.
Q. You saw it very soon after you got there, did not you?
A. Well, I could not tell you exactly the time, probably 3/4 of an hour after I got there.
Q. Then it was around one o’clock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In your opinion, if the ax had been washed an hour before that, it would have been perfectly dry then?
A. I think so.
Q. With the rust and all?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So far as you recollect, the blade of the hatchet was what we term bone dry; it gave no indication of moisture, or anything of that sort?
A. I do not think you find anything bone dry in a cellar.
Q. Was not this a cellar that was thoroughly light?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you mean to say that was a damp cellar?
A. The earth in any cellar is damp.
Q. Was there any earth there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where?
A. Down stairs.
Q. Was not there a board floor?
A. In the washing apartment.
Q. Was there not in the room just as you turn to go down stairs?
A. No Sir, it was an earth floor, so far as I recollect.
Q. Are you quite sure about that?
A. Quite sure.
Q. These hatchets were standing upon the earth?
A. No Sir, they were not standing at all; they were lying down upon the earth.
Q. Blade down to the earth?
A, All down.
Q. Blade down to the earth?
A. It would have to be, would it not?
Q. They might be lying against the partition of the cellar stairs.
A. I did not say so.
Q. Then they were lying down on the ground?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then they were damp, were they?
A. Do you mean from washing?
Q. You said it was a damp cellar?
A. I did not.
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Q. You said all cellars were damp?
A. I said more or less.
Q. Was this more or a less damp cellar?
A. I do not think that is a very sensible question. “a more or less damp cellar”.
Q. I beg your pardon Mr. Witness. If you wish to criticize my question—
A. I think that is a foolish question.
Q. Was this a damp cellar?
A. I would like to know just your degree of dampness, what you mean.
Q. Was it damp?
A. Do you mean was there water in it?
Q. No sir, was it damp, in the ordinary acceptation of the word?
A. In the ordinary acceptation of the word, I should say it was.
Q. Damp in consequence of there being earth there?
A. Certainly.
Q. These axes were lying upon the earth?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Well, were they damp?
A. The question you asked me was, were they wet.
Q. I am asking you now were they damp?
A. I should say they were not perfectly dry. According to your primary, first, question about bone dry, I should think they were not.
Q. They were not perfectly dry?
A. No Sir.
Q. They were damp, the hatchets I am talking about, the blades of the hatchets and the ax, they were not perfectly dry?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did not you say a few minutes ago that the hatchet was dry, the blade of it?
A. I said it was dry, as dry as you would find a thing in a cellar.
Q. That is what you said?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was there any indication of moisture; did it rub as though there was a moist feeling about it?
A. I did not try it for that.
Q. Did you see it tried?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did anybody, under your direction, or in your sight, rub this spot which you say you saw on the outside of the window glass of the window of the chamber ?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After that had been done did you say you thought it was blood?
A. I said it looked like blood.
Q. When did you determine it was not blood?
A. At that time.
Q. It looked like blood, but was not blood.
A. Yes Sir.
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Q. What was it?
A. I do not know; dirt of some kind.
Q. It was dirt?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you search, or cause to be searched, the person of Mr. Borden at that time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you take from it the things that were found?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you take?
A. I took some keys.
Q. Where are they.
A. In my possession.
Q. Have you got them here?
A. No Sir.
Q. Will you produce them?
A. If you wish, yes sir.
Q. I do. You took some keys?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. A bunch?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is to say, they were on a key ring?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In what pocket were they?
A. I did not take them myself.
Q. Did you see them taken?
A. No Sir.
Q. Who gave them to you?
A. The undertaker.
Q. I understood you to say you took some keys.
A. No Sir.
Q. Did not I just ask you if you searched, or caused the search?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know where these keys came from, what pocket?
A. No Sir, I do not.
Q. Did they come from any pocket?
A. I could not say.
Q. Where were you when the undertaker handed them to you?
A. In the sitting room.
Q. On this day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you take anythingelse from the person, or see anything taken from the person?
A. I cannot remember now whether I took anything or not; I think I did take something myself; I cannot remember just what it was.
Q. What else have you?
A. I have got some money.
Q. Loose, or in a pocket book?
A. Loose and in a pocket book, change, I have some silver, and some
Page 184
money in a pocket book.
Q. Who gave you those?
A. The undertaker.
Q. What else?
A. I do not recollect anythingelse. I have a memorandum book.
Q. Have you got any papers?
A. I could not say; I have not examined it.
Q. You have not examined them?
A. I counted the money before the undertaker.
Q. Where are all these things?
A. In the safe at the office.
Q. Will you produce them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you any keys other than this bunch of keys?
A. There is a big key there, like a shop key.
Q. Have you any other key besides the big shop key and this bunch of keys?
A. I do not know, I have not examined them thoroughly; they were all put in a handkerchief, and tied up, and they have remained that way.
Q. I understand you have not altered these keys as to their arrangement since you received them?
A. No Sir.
Q. There are certain keys that are on a key ring?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. There is one other large key?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So far as you recollect, that is all the keys there are?
A. So far as I can recollect.
Q. Whatever keys there are, are precisely the same collection that they were, when you received them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When this Oak Grove Autopsy was made, I understood you to say that then for the first time this wound in the back of Mrs. Borden was discovered?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was there anythingelse found at that time in the shape of injuries that were not discovered at the time that you made this partial autopsy, as you term it, at the house?
A. I do not think so.
Q. Then everythingelse was precisely as you had discovered it at the time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have those bodies been interred?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. I do not know just what date it was; I think it was a week last Tuesday.

Page 185
Q. Did you remove anything from those bodies, or either of them?
A. Yes sir, I removed the skulls, the heads.
Q. The skulls?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. The day of the autopsy.
Q. For what purpose?
A. Because I was instructed so to do.
Q. Were you, at the time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. By whom?
A. By the Attorney General.
Q. Was he there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where did he give you that instruction?
A. Fall River.
Q. When, was it at the time he gave you the instructions with reference to this autopsy?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did not you say yesterday you could not remember whether it was he or the District Attorney that gave you that instruction?
A. Both gentlemen were together.
Q. Did not you say yesterday you could not remember which one gave you the instruction?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you recollect since yesterday afternoon that it was the Attorney General?
A. No Sir, I have not thought of it at all since.
Q. You are sure it was the Attorney General?
A. I am not quite sure now, sir.
Q. Was it a verbal instruction?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. He told you to remove the skulls?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The Attorney General?
A. The Attorney General of this state, yes sir.
Q. I do not assume the Attorney General of any other state has anything to do with this case. You did so?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do with them?
A. I cleaned them.
Q. You cleaned them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you mean to say these bodies are now buried without the heads?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where are these skulls?
A. In my possession.
Q. Where?
A. At my office.
Page 186

Q. Has it been said to any member of this family, or any friend, that these people were buried without their heads?
A. I do not know.
Q. Have you said it, or caused it to be said?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you photograph them, or cause them to be photographed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. I do not know whether Monday or Tuesday of this week.
Q. Of this week?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had some photographs taken of the scene, did you not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that on the day of the killing?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You told me yesterday, but I forgot the name; who was the photographer?
A. James A. Walsh.
Q. Of this city?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What time in the day did he go there?
A. Three o’clock in the afternoon.
Q. Were you present?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Before he got there, had anything been changed?
A. No Sir, probably the furniture, some of the furniture, such as the chairs, but none of the essential furniture.
Q. Had the bodies been moved?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were they not moved for the purpose of the autopsy?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did not you say you lifted up Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then she was moved?
A. She was placed right back again.
Q. I did not ask you whether she was placed back again; I asked you whether she had been moved. Had not both of the bodies been moved?
A. Mr. Borden? No.
Q. Did not you lift his head at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did not you disturb the body when you removed the stomach?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was not that done before the photographer got there?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was not done until afterwards?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you lifted Mrs. Borden, did you not change the position of the arms?

Page 187
A. The arms fell down by the side when she was lifted up, yes sir.
Q. In other words, when the photograph was taken, you put her back again as nearly as you could in the position in which you saw her; is that right?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was the bed moved?
A. No Sir, not for the first photograph; it was moved afterwards.
Q. Before the first photograph was taken, was the bed moved?
A. No Sir.
Q. Had anything on the bed been changed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What?
A. The covering and shams; the bed had been searched.
Q. Before the photographer came, had anything on the bed been disturbed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What?
A. The covering of the bed; the bed itself had been thoroughly searched.
Q. That is to say, it had all been removed?
A. No Sir.
Q. It had to be lifted up, and unmade, the mattresses, &c?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who made it up again for the purposes of this picture?
A. The clothes were thrown back, I do not know who did that.
Q. Done by a man’s hand?
A. It evidently was.
Q. Then it did not look as it did before?
A. No Sir.
Q. Then in this photograph the appearance of the bed is not the same as it was at the time of the
murder?
A. The bed clothing is not the same.
Q. Do you know what became of the sham that had the blood spots on?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was not taken?
A. Not by me.
Q. That was not taken in the picture?
A. Yes Sir, the pillow sham is taken in the picture.
Q. The very pillow sham?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you the photographs here?
A. Yes Sir. (Producing them.)
Q. Did the same photographer take the picture of these skulls that you have?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you bring those photographs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where are they?
Page 188
A. Down stairs.
Q. Were you present at the time when the safe was opened?
A. No, not when it was opened, I was not.
Q. When you were trying to open it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was that?
A. I do not recollect the day; I know it was one evening.
Q. Several days after the murder?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you examine the safe, or see it examined?
A. I saw the contents, yes sir.
Q. Did you examine it to find a will?
A. Well, I presume that is what they were looking for.
Q. Who were there making the examination, besides yourself?
A. Mr. Knowlton and Mr. Jennings.
Q. You found no will?
A. No Sir I did not.
Q. You know none was found, do you not?
A. I do not know positively that none was found.
Q. So far as you are informed, none was found?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Adams.) The District Attorney has asked me if we would agree to two facts, namely; that for the purpose of this hearing, Mr. Borden was a man of means, sufficient to live upon. I do not doubt that, and I am perfectly willing that should be assumed as a fact. Second, that no will was found among his effects. We agree those facts should be taken as proved, without the formality of calling a lot of witnesses to that.
Q. Have you now told me all, everything that you found in the house that you consider in any way
pertinent to this hearing?
A. I think I have, sir; if there is anything else, it is simply because I cannot recollect it.
Q. Do you remember a pail in the cellar?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And were there some clothes or napkins in that pail?
A. Yes Sir, three.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. I examined them casually.
Q. Did you take them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were they taken by anybody?
A. By the officer, officer Mullaly I think I told to take them.
Q. What was subsequently done with them, if you know?
A. Nothing; they were left down stairs in the marshal’s office, and nothing further done with them.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. Yes Sir.
Page 189
Q. Did you become satisfied that they had no connection with this case?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton.) We claim nothing at present.
Q. There was of course clothing which was found on the bodies of both Mr. and Mrs. Borden, that clothing has not been talked about at all; but I believe it was at one time put in the earth back of the barn?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is to say, the clothing was buried without any envelope or box that first time?
A. I was not there, but I understand that to be so.
Q. Then it was taken up, and examines and buried again?
A. Yes Sir, put into a box.
Q. When it was buried again, it was put into a wooden box?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was taken up two or three times?
A. Twice I think.
Q. What has become of that clothing?
A. It is down stairs.
Q. In the marshal’s office?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is all the clothing that was found on the bodies of each there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When did I understand you to say you gave these axes and that hatchet to Prof. Wood?
A. It was the day he was down here from Boston; I do not know just what day it was; I think it was the Tuesday.
Q. Was it before or after the Oak Grove Autopsy?
A. It was before.
Q. Did you have the axes or hatchet at any time during that autopsy?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were they at any time used by you or any person in your presence, with reference to the wound?
A. No Sir.
Q. They never have been tried, or attempted to be fitted to those wounds, have they?
A. No Sir.
Q. All the observation you had with reference to determining the time of the death of either of these people was when you made your autopsy, was not it?
A. No Sir, I made the view.
Q. You said when you made the view of Mrs. Borden, you merely looked at her, the first time you went up stairs?
A. The very first time.
Q. You did not do anything else with reference to her until after you had completed the view and the autopsy of Mr. Borden down stairs?
Page 190
A. No Sir, the autopsies were not until the afternoon.
Q. You said, as I understood you yesterday afternoon, you went up stairs anywhere from quarter to half past twelve to complete the view of Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That is the time when you lifted her up?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That was the time when you formed an opinion, so far as you could, of the time that she died?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You said she might have been dead an hour, or an hour and a half?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Then you would fix the time of her (?) death from eleven o’clock until quarter past eleven would you?
A. That would bring it.
Q. It has got to bring it, has it not?
A. Yes sir, somewhere about that time.
Q. From eleven to quarter past eleven?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That is your opinion, is it not?
A. I did not base my opinion solely —-
Q. I did not ask you what you based your opinion on. I asked you if that is your opinion?
A. No sir it is not my opinion.
Q. Have not you said when you performed the autopsy at half past three in the afternoon, that at that time the question of temperature was such, that the time of death was mere speculation?
A. Yes sir.
Q. It is all speculation, is not it, practically when you come to get down to an hour or an hour and a half, or three quarters of an hour?
A. So far as temperature is concerned.
Q. I am speaking of what the autopsy disclosed at half past three in the afternoon.
A. Yes sir.
Q. Then your opinion is based upon something somebody has told you?
A. No sir.
Q. What time do you say she died, after you have testified in the way you have?
A. I should say that she died from an hour to an hour and a half before Mr. Borden, basing that opinion not on the temperature entirely.
Q. On what?
A. Basing it more than anything upon the clotted, black condition of the blood around her head, more than anything.
Q. That was on this clotted blood colored carpet too?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was that a Brussels carpet?

Page 191
A. I could not say that.
Q. It is a carpet made with a canvas under side, and the pile up?
A. Yes sir, I think so.
Q. That would arrest the blood on it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. If it arrested the blood, it would throw it up so it would dry readily?
A. It should, yes sir.
Q. The blood had become coagulated because it was dried quick?
A. It was not dried.
Q. The coagulation was in consequence of the drying, was not it? Was the blood on the carpet coagulated because of its not having dried, or of the drying taking place?
A. No sir, not on account of drying, it was on being exposed to the air.
Q. That answers my question; if it is exposed to the air, it dries too?
A. To a certain extent it would dry.
Q. Would it dry in a vacuum?
A. Yes, not dry, coagulate.
Q. Would it dry in a vacuum?
A. No sir.
Q. You say it would dry because it was exposed to the air, and it coagulates because it is exposed to the air too?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Would it coagulate in a vacuum?
A. I think it would.
Q. Do not you know it would remain in the same condition in a vacuum for hours and hours?
A. No sir.
Q. Have you tried it?
A. No sir, that is simply my opinion.
Q. That is mere speculation?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You say it coagulated because it was exposed the air?
A. Yes sir, and because it was outside of his living tissue.
Q. The blood down stairs was outside of the living tissue, was it not?
A. What blood?
Q. That you saw with reference to Mr. Borden.
A. Yes sir.
Q. There were spots on the wall?
A. Yes sir.
Q. They were dried, were they not?
A. Yes sir, when I saw them.
Q. You saw them before you saw Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Were those spots coagulated?
Page 192
A. There was not enough of them to coagulate.
Q. How much does it take of blood to coagulate?
A. More than a spot.
Q. In every corpuscle there is coagulation?
A. I do not know about that.
Q. Do you know it is not so?
A. I would not say; it is something I never thought of.
Q. You are not prepared to say whether there was coagulation in the spots on the paper or not?
A. There must have been.
Q. That is in Mr. Borden’s case. If the blood had coagulated in Mr. Borden’s case, how does that prove that Mrs. Borden was killed an hour and a half before Mr. Borden?
A. There were so few of the spots, if there were such spots in Mrs. Borden’s case, they would have been coagulated also.
Q. Was it a Brussels carpet in the room where Mr. Borden was, or a two or three ply?
A. It was not wool; it was Brussels.
Q. Coming back to the carpet up stairs in Mrs. Borden’s room, which you say was Brussels, would not that style of carpet tend to keep the blood up, that is prevent its soaking through as readily as through a wool carpet or cotton cloth?
A. Yes sir I think it would.
Q. That would make it bright colored, would it not?
A. Yes sir.
Q. It would coagulate would it not?
A. I do not think any more quickly.
Q. Would it not coagulate because it was kept up on top of a Brussels carpet exposed to the air?
A. No sir.
Q. Then can you say, taking into account the kind of carpet, and the reasons you have said are true, that Mrs. Borden for that reason died an hour and a half before he did?
A. I do not think the carpet had anything to do with it.
Q. For these reasons can you say that she died an hour and a half before he did?
A. Which reasons?
Q. These we have been discussing.
A. On account of the texture of the carpet?
Q. Because the blood was kept up, and kept in the air, because it had coagulated, and not soaked through, can you say on that account she died an hour to an hour and a half first?
A. I should say from the condition of the blood I found there, if it was on a pine floor or
anything else, it would indicate it had been out of the living tissue for an hour and a half or two hours.
Q. On what account?
A. On account of the firmness of the coagulation.
Q. You did not see that blood under her until quarter to one?
Page 193
A. Yes Sir, when I first went up.
Q. Did you stoop down and examine it, whether it was coagulated or not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you say that before?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You formed that opinion when you went up stairs that first time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. By just looking at it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you at that time, this first time, examine the edges of the wounds upon Mrs. Borden?
A. The very first time, up stairs, no sir.
Q. To determine how long they had been cut?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you the second time, about one o’clock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long did you think they had been cut then?
A. I could not tell you, because I did not examine very particularly for the freshness of the wound.
Q. I will ask you again for the purpose of certainty when it was that you formed your opinion as to the length of time that Mrs. Borden had been dead?
A. By the coagulation of the blood the first time I saw her —
Q. I ask you when it was that you first formed your opinion; I asked you when it was.
A. The first time I saw her.
Q. It was in consequence of what you saw then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now it was at that time that you determined how long she had been dead?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long do you think at that time she had been dead?
A. I say by the condition of the blood it must have been from an hour to two hours.
Q. Would you be surprised if it was three quarters of an hour?
A. No Sir, I would not.
Q. You did not see her until about twelve o’clock did you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was about twelve o’clock, was it not?
A. 12 o’clock.
Q. During any of this investigation by you, did you get any blood upon your clothes, or you shoes?
A. Not upon my shoes, as I told you yesterday I got two or three spots on my pantaloons.
Q. Did you not step in any blood while you were there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did anybody that you saw while there?
A. No Sir, not as I know of.
Q. You have not heard anything of that sort?
A. No Sir.

Page 194
(Dr. Dolan recalled)

Q. (Mr. Adams.) Have you got the keys here?
A. I have. Everything is just as I got it, I have not opened it.
Q. Wont you examine, and produce the keys?
A. (Witness produces the keys.)
Q. Is that the large key you speak of?
A. That was the one I referred to; I did not notice this.
Q. Are these three, namely, the bunch of keys, and the two separate keys, are those all the keys?
A. Yes Sir, so far as I can see.
Q. I see you have produced some fine cut chewing tobacco; you understood that Mr. Borden was not in the habit of using tobacco, chewing tobacco?
A. I do not know; I could not tell you.
Q. You do not know, except that there is a package of partly used fine chewing tobacco?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I asked you before you went, I will ask you again now you see the keys, whether these keys are arranged as they were when they were handed to you?
A. Yes Sir, I have not disturbed them.
Q. If you will leave these things here, I will not trouble you any further, we shall want them during the trial.
A. I should want an order of the Court before I gave them up.
(Court) That is entirely right.
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) I meant to have asked you at the direct examination. The engineer gave us some distances from a place he said you pointed out to him, as the place where the head of Mr. Borden lay after he was found dead?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you point out such a place to him from which to make measures?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was the correct place?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Are these the pictures that were produced, and handed to my brothers?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton) I will put them in.
Q. When an artery is cut, Doctor, what is the result, if the person is alive?
A. The artery spurts blood.
Q. How many of such spurts that would result from an artery being severed, did you find around Mr. Borden’s body?
A. I think there was but one. I think that cluster was made by one artery.
Q. What cluster is that, that you refer to?
Page 195
A. That cluster of 86 spots.
Q. The one you said was somewhat semi-circular in form?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In what direction would the blood spurt to make that semi-circular cluster, from the head, from one of the wounds in the head, would it be at right angles to the wall? Taking the position of the head as you found it.
A. No Sir, an oblique angle.
Q. Above, or somewhat on the same line?
A. A little above.
Q. So the direction of that spurt would be above, upwards from the body, and toward the wall, obliquely?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That you say was the only thing that looked to you like a spurt from an artery?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. These other spots that you found, were not in your opinion spurts?
A. No Sir, I do not think so; I think they were from a weapon.
Q. Is there any way in which you could determine which were the first blows struck, the first blows struck upon Mr. Borden?
A. No Sir, not very well, I could not. No Sir, I could not say which was the first blow.
Q. That is to say, there would be no way of determining which the first blow was?
A. No Sir.
Q. Would this be true, that the blow that produced the spurt that you have spoken of, must have been given in life?
A. Yes Sir, before the heart ceased.
Q. The heart ceases as soon as life ceases?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And spurting ceases too?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is there any way in which you can determine definitely which was the first blow given to Mrs. Borden?
A. No Sir, simply theory, that is all.
Q. Is the position of the blows upon the top of the head, such, that the crushing blows, such as that, could not have been given, as she was standing?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was his watch found upon his person?
A. Yes Sir it was.
Q. Did you find it?
A. No Sir, I did not.
Q. I understood you did not take any of these things?
A. No Sir.
Q. I intended to ask this in direct examination. How far completed
Page 196
was the bed in the spare room when it was found?
A. It was in perfect shape.
Q. All made?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Shams on?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What time was it you say you saw her first?
A. I saw her first shortly after I came in. I saw Mr. Borden first, just looked at him, and went right up stairs.
Q. What time did you go in?
A. Quarter of 12.
Q. I thought you said in cross-examination it was about 12 you saw her?
A. I could not say just the minute. I asked questions, and talked to those around me.
Q. Now, the photograph of Mrs. Borden; the bed has been removed here, I take it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was she in the same position on the floor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The same position of the body?
A. No Sir.
Q. No. 2 was taken at the morgue?
A. No Sir, it was taken at the house.
Q. Not on the sofa?
A. No Sir, it was taken so to get a good view of the head.
Q. In No. 3 the bed was in the position in which you found it?
A. The bed frame, yes sir.
Q. All things then were in position in No. 3?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. No. 4, where was that taken?
A. After she was carried down stairs.
Q. No. 5, which is the picture of Mr. Borden, was that as it was when the body was found by you, in every particular?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. (Mr. Adams) You were asked with reference to spurting by an artery that has been severed, is the direction of the spurt indicated somewhat by the way the blow is given in the first place. That is, if you cut an artery transversely, it would spurt in one way; and where you cut it this way, it would spurt the other way?
A. To a certain extent.
Q. When an artery spurts, the direction of the spurt depends upon the way the artery is cut?
A. Yes Sir, to quite an extent.
Q. In this picture in the bed room up stairs, that you say is correctly taken, there was then more space between the body of Mrs. Borden and the bureau, than between her body and the bed? In other

Page 197
words that picture shows there was no space between her body and the bed?
A. Yes Sir, it shows quite a space.
Q. Is there nearly as much as upon the other side?
A. No Sir, not as much.
Q. Is not the body practically up against the bed frame there?
A. Within six or seven inches I should say.
Q. And the space on the other side is two or three times as large in your opinion?
A. Yes Sir, two or three times.
Q. Have you told me everything that was found in that room where she was?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was not there a yard stick found there?
A. I do not know whether there was a yard stick found there.
Q. Do you know anything about that?
A. Do I know anything about a yard stick having been found there, no sir.
Q. Near her feet, partly under the bed, on the floor.
A. No Sir.
Q. Never have seen any?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did you see it?
A. I saw it in that room.
Q. When did you see it?
A. I saw it that day.
Q. Where was it when you saw it?
A. I could not tell you. I asked for a yard stick, and a yard stick was brought to me.
Q. Who brought it to you?
A. I could not tell you that.
Q. You do not know whether the yard stick was there at the time when her body was there, or not?
A. No Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton) When did you call for the yard stick, the first or second view?
A. The second time I went up stairs.
Q. You asked for it for some purpose connected with the view?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did any person go out of the room for it?
A. I do not know.
(Mr. Adams) At that first view was there a chair by the bureau, and between the bureau and the window?
A. No Sir. I am glad you spoke of that chair that is lacking from the photograph. There was a kind of a camp chair, you might call it, an upholstered chair between her head and the east wall; and the feet of that were covered with blood.

Page 198
Q. What has become of that chair?
A. It was in the house on Second street the last time I was there.
Q. It was not taken away?
A. No Sir.
Q. Whether there was a chair at the end of the bureau between the bureau and the window, when you saw that room the first time?
A. I think there was a cane seated chair.
Q. Was there any chair near it?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Was this a chair with ordinary legs, or legs with a rocker?
A. That I would not say.
Q. You do not recollect whether it was a sewing chair, or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you remember any work basket being there?
A. Yes Sir, immediately in front of this chair.
Q. What was this work basket resting on?
A. On the floor—- no, I think it was a rocking chair up against the bureau, and then the basket was sitting on the other ordinary cane seated chair, opposite.
Q. You mean the rocking chair was up against the bureau at the end of it, between that and the window, in that space?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The other chair was on the other side of the window in front of it, having the work basket on it?
A. Yes Sir, and the sewing machine behind it.
Q. Is that in the photograph?
A. No Sir.

(Dr. Dolan recalled.)

Q. (Mr. Adams) Doctor, have you completed, and filed the record of the Oak Grove autopsy?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Has it been filed in Court?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was it done?
A. I believe the morning after I was on the stand here, the first morning, that would be Friday morning I think.
(Court hands the report to Mr. Adams, upon his request.)
Q. What is this, Doctor? (Handing witness paper.)
A. It is a record of the autopsy held at the Oak Grove Cemetery.
Q. What is that? (Handing witness another paper.)
A. It is a record of the autopsy of Andrew Borden; the first one was a record of the autopsy of Abby D. Borden.
Q. Both held at Oak Grove Cemetery on Tuesday following the tragedy?
A. No Sir.

Page 199
Q. The autopsy itself I mean.
A. On Thursday.
(Mr. Adams) I want to put both of these in.

Fall River, Mass. August 11, 1892.

Record of Autopsy on body of Abby D. Borden, aged 64 years. Thursday, August 11, 1892, at 12.35
P.M. One week after death.

The Autopsy was performed by W. A. Dolan, Medical Examiner, assisted by Dr. F. W. Draper, and was witnessed by F. W. Draper of Boston, and J. H. Leary of Fall River. Clerk of Autopsy D. E. Cone of Fall River. Body was that of a female, very well nourished and very fleshy, 64 years of age. 5 feet, 3 inches in height. No stiffness of death, owing to decomposition, which was far advanced. Abdomen had already been opened. Artificial teeth in upper jaw. No marks of violence on front of body. On back of body was First an incised wound 2 and 1/2 inches in length, and 2 and 1/2 inches in depth. The lower angle of the wound was over the spine and four inches below the junction of neck with body, and extending thence upward and outward to the left. On the forehead and bridge of nose were three contused wounds. Those on the forehead being oval, lengthwise with body.

Second. The contusion on bridge of nose was one inch in length by one half inch in width.

Third. On the forehead one was one inch above left eyebrow, one and 1/4 inches long by 3/8 inch in width, and the other one and 1/4 inches above eyebrow, and one and 1/2 inches long by 1/4 inch wide. On the head there were 18 distinct wounds, incising and crushing, and all but four were on the right side. Counting from left to right with the face downwards, the wounds were as follows;
1. was a glancing scalp wound two inches in length by one and 1/2 inches in width, situated 3 inches above left ear hole, cut from above downwards and did not penetrate the skull.
2. Was exactly on top of the skull one inch long penetrating into but not through the skull.
3. Was parallel to No. 2, one and 1/2 inches long, and penetrating through the skull.
4. Was 2 and 1/4 inches long above occipital protuberance and one and 1/2 inches long.
5. was parallel to No. 4 and one and 1/2 inches long.
6. Was just above and parallel to No. 5, and one and 1/4 inches long
Page 200
On top of the skull was a transverse fracture two inches in length, a continuation of a penetrating wound.
7. was two inches long and two inches behind ear hole crushing and carrying bone into brain.
All the wounds of the head following No. 7 though incised crushed through into the brain.
8. was 2 and 1/2 inches long
9. was 2 and 3/4 inches long
10 was one and 3/4 inches long
11 was 1/2 inches long
12 was 2 and 1/4 inches long
13 was one and 3/4 inches long
14 was two and 1/2 inches long
15 reached from middle line of head towards the ear 5 inches long
16 was one inch long
17 was 1/2 inch long
18 was 3 and 1/2 inches long

These wounds on the right side were parallel, the direction being mostly from in front backwards.

HEAL. There was a hole in the right side of the skull 4 and 1/2 to 5 and 1/4 inches, through which the brain was evacuated in a fluid condition being entirely decomposed.
CHEST. The chest and abdomen were opened by one incision from chin to pubis.
LUNGS. Bound down behind but normal. HEART normal.
ABDOMEN. Stomach and part of bowel had been removed. Spleen, pancreas, kidneys, liver, bladder and intestines were normal. Womb was the seat of a small fibroid tumor on anterior surface. Fallopian tubes and ovaries normal. Lower bowel empty. Upper portion of small bowel containing undigested food.
W.A. Dolan, Medical Examiner.
D. E. Cone, Clerk.
Page 201
Fall River, Mass. August 11, 1892

Record of Autopsy held at Oak Grove Cemetery on body of Andrew J. Borden.

Autopsy performed by W. A. Dolan, Medical Examiner, assisted by Dr. F. W. Draper. Witnesses F. W. Draper of Boston and John W. Leary of Fall River. Clerk D. E. Cone of Fall River. Time of Autopsy 11.15 A.M. August 11th,1892, one week after death.

Body that of a man well nourished. Age seventy years. 5 feet 11 inches in height. No stiffness of deathon account of decomposition, which was far advanced. Inguinal hernia on right side. Abdomen had already been opened. Artificial teeth in upper jaw. There were no marks of violence on body, but on left side of head and face there were numerous incised wounds and one contused wound penetrating into the brain. The wounds beginning at the nose and to the left were as follows:

1 Incised wound 4 inches long beginning at lower border of left nasal bone and reaching to lower edgeof lower jaw, cutting through nose, upper lip, lower lip, and slightly into bone of upper and lower jaw.
2 Began at internal angle of eye and extended to one and 3/8 inches of lower edge of jaw, beginning 4 and 1/2 inches in length, cutting through the tissues and into the bone.
3 Began at lower border of lower eye lid cutting through the tissues and into the cheek bone, 2 inches long and one and 3/8 inches deep.
4 Began two inches above upper eye lid 1/2 inch external to wound No. 3, thence downward and outward through middle of left eyebrow through the eye ball cutting it completely in halves, and excising a piece of the skull one and 1/2 inches in length by 1/2 inch in width. Length of would 4 and1/2 inches.
5 Began on level of same wound superficial scalp wound downward and outward 2 inches long.
6 Parallel with this 1/4 inch long, downward and outward.
7 Began 1/2 inch below No. 5, 3 inches in length downward and outward, penetrating cavity of skull. On top of skull was a transverse fracture 4 and 1/2 inches in length.
8 Began directly above No. 7 and one inch in length downward and outward.
9 Directly posterior to No. 8 beginning at ear and extending 4 inches long, 2 inches in width, crushing bone and carrying bone into brain. Also crushing from without in.
10 Directly behind this and above it, and running downwards backward 2 inches long superficially.

The general direction of all these wounds is parallel to each other.

Page 202
HEAD. Right half of top of skull removed. Brain found to be completely decomposed; and in fluid condition.
CHEST. Chest and abdomen opened by one incision extending from neck to pubis. Right lung glued to ribs in front. Left lung normal.
HEART normal.
ABDOMEN. Spleen normal, kidney normal, liver and bladder normal. Stomach and portion of liver had been removed. Lower part of large bowel filled with solid formed faeces. Faeces also in lower part of small bowel.
William A. Dolan, Medical Examiner
D. E. Cone, Clerk

THIS ENDS VOLUME II —- SEE CONTINUATION IN SEPARATE POST  – PART 3.

 
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Posted by on December 10, 2014 in Investigations & The Trial

 

LIZZIE BORDEN PRELIMINARY HEARING – PART 1

 NOTE:  I’M POSTING THIS IN 4 PARTS.

PrelimHearing
The Preliminary Hearing was made available by me in early 2001 when designed and produced as seen above. The source document used was purchased from the Fall River Historical Society who sell unbound sheets of photocopies of this document. Their source was the copy once owned by Andrew J. Jennings, Lizzie’s attorney, which contained his handwritten notes written on back of the pages or on the margins. The hardbound copy I created, illustrated above, includes those handwritten notes. The electronic copy  which I transcribed into WORD in 2001 and is presented here,does not.

I have sold this on eBay many times for the past 13 years and although Stefani Koorey claims it is *her* work, it is not.  Harry Widdows (now deceased) also transcribed the Preliminary Hearing, but as I make no claim of his work, neither can Ms. Koorey of mine.

This post allows you do a cut and paste or copy and save for your own future reference.  If you copy and save to a WORD document, you can do word searches.   It is insightful reading as memories were fresh, unlike the Trial proceedings ten months later.

Faye Musselman © 2001 All rights reserved.

**************************************************************************************************************

PRELIMINARY HEARING

STENOGRAPHER’S MINUTES
VOLUMES I – V

COMMONWEALTH
VS.
LIZZIE A. BORDEN

Thursday, August 25, 1892
Thru
Thursday, September 1, 1892

Judge Josiah Coleman Blaisdell, presiding
Second District Court
Fall River, MA.

Annie M. White, Stenographer
New Bedford, Mass
Created by Faye Musselman  2001

PRELIMINARY HEARING

STENOGRAPHER’S MINUTES

VOLUME I

COMMONWEALTH (Mr. Knowlton)
vs.
LIZZIE A. BORDEN  (Mr. Adams, Mr. Jennings)

WITNESSES Direct Cross Re-Direct Re-Cross

Abram G. Hart 203
John T. Burrell 204
Everett Cook 205 206
Charles C. Cook 206
Caroline Kelley 208 210
Jonathon Clegg 212 213
John Cunningham 215 216
Francis H. Wixon 220 223
Joseph Shortsleeves 230
James Mather 231 232
John V. Morse 235 246 262 263
Adelaide B. Churchill 270 279

Annie M. White, Stenographer
New Bedford, Mass

Page 1
BRIDGET SULLIVAN

Q. (Mr. Knowlton) Your name is Bridget Sullivan?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go by the name of Maggie usually at the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So if anybody says anything about Maggie, it means you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You were employed at Mr. Borden’s house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long had you been employed there?
A. About two years and nine months.
Q. What were your duties?
A. Well, I done the washing and ironing and cooking.
Q. Anything else besides that?
A. A little sweeping and scrubbing.
Q. Which part of the house did you have the sweeping of?
A. I had the front hall to do, the front entry.
Q. What days did you sweep the front hall?
A. Every other week, Friday.
Q. Only once in two weeks?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have any other duties in the front part of the house, except sweeping the front hall?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you have the care of any of the beds?
A. No Sir.
Q. None of them at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you have any duties in any of the bed rooms up stairs?
A. No Sir.
Q. At the time of the tragedy, Miss Sullivan, Miss Emma, was she at hope?
A. No Sir.
Q. How long had she been away, about? I dont care for a day or two.
A. I guess she was two weeks. I can’t exactly tell.
Q. She was out of town you understood?
A. That is what I understood.
Q. She had not been in town, so far as you knew, for that time?
A. No Sir.

Page 2
Q. When she was gone, who did the family consist of? Who was left for the family? Who was the family then?
A. Mr. and Mrs. Borden, and Miss Lizzie. Miss Lizzie went with her the day she went.
Q. She did not stay long? How long did she stay?
A. I guess she stayed three days, so far as I can remember.
Q. When she came back, did she go off again?
A. No Sir.
Q. She stayed there all the time. Do you know when Mr. Morse came?
A. He came there a Wednesday.
Q. When did you first see him?
A. I think it was, about, pretty near two o’clock, or half past one.
Q. In the afternoon?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You got him some dinner?
A. Mrs. Borden waited on him, and got him some dinner.
Q. When did you see Mr. Morse again?
A. I saw him going out in the afternoon.
Q. Do you mean walking out?
A. Going out, and going over the River, as I understood.
Q. You understood he was going over the River?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You stayed at home that afternoon, did you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see him when he came home that night?
A. No Sir.
Q. He was not at supper then?
A. No Sir.
Q. Who was at supper that night?
A. Miss Lizzie, and Mr. and Mrs. Borden.
Q. He was not at supper?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was Wednesday night?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. He was not at dinner with the rest of them?
A. No Sir.
Q. What time did you get up Thursday morning?
A. Quarter past six I should judge I was down stairs.
Q. Did you see anybody yelse down there when you came down?
A. No Sir.
Q. What time did you go to bed the night before?
A. After ten o’clock.
Q. Did you have anything to do with shutting up the doors when you went to bed, or any of them?
A. Not except the back door, I locked that, had a key for it, when I got in.
Page 3
Q. You mean the wooden door, not the screen.
A. I had to come through the screen door.
Q. Which did you lock?
A. Both doors.
Q. How was the screen door locked?
A. A bolt.
Q. How the wooden door?
A. There was a fastener to it.
Q. You did not have anything to do with the front door?
A. No Sir.
Q. When you came down stairs in the morning, how did you find the back door?
A. Just as I left it.
Q. What did you do when you came down, about the door?
A. Started my fire.
Q. Did you open either of the doors?
A. The back doors.
Q. Both of them?
A. Yes Sir, and took in my milk can.
Q. The milk can was outside?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After you took in the milk can, did you do anything to the screen door?
A. Hooked the door.
Q. Did you shut the wooden door up again?
A. No Sir.
Q. Left that open?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that kept open all day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was the habit at that time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How was the screen door kept at that time?
A. About quarter of seven I opened it for the ice man to come in.
Q. When you opened it, did you unhook it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After the ice man came in, did you hook it again?
A. I cant say, I dont remember.
Q. Do you know how that was usually kept, that screen door, hooked or not?
A. It was hooked most of the time. I kept it hooked as far as I could know about it.
Q. Did anybodyelse come in at the back door, that you know of, that morning, besides the ice man, and your going out to get the milk, and coming in?
A. I do not remember.
Q. You mean you do not remember of anybody else, or whether there was

Page 4

anybody else?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where was your milk can?
A. Right on the back steps.
Q. Do I understand you to say whether you do not remember of anybodyelse coming in?
A. Not out of the house. I supposed the others were in the house. I cannot remember when they went or came.
Q. You saw Mr. Morse go out?
A. No Sir. Mr. Borden went out after he got down stairs.
Q. Before Mr. Borden went out, do you recollect seeing anybodyelse go out or in, besides the ice man, and when you went out yourself?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you go out of doors that morning again before Mr. Borden went out?
A. No Sir.
Q. You went out after the milk can on the steps?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go through the screen door again after that?
A. No Sir.
Q. About quarter past six you got up?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see anybody up when you came down?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see anybody in the house when you came down?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or hear anybody?
A. No Sir.
Q. Who was the first one you saw that morning?
A. Mrs. Borden.
Q. How soon after you got up before you saw Mrs. Borden?
A. About half past six, or twenty minutes of seven. She came down stairs from her bed room, and into the kitchen.
Q. The back stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Her room was where?
A. Over the kitchen.
Q. From Mr. Borden’s room too, of course?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know how the arrangement of that house was, whether it was usual to go through— was there any way of going from the back stairs to the front part of the house?
A. I dont know anything about it; but there was a door there; I do not know whether it was kept locked or not.
Q. Where was that?
A. The door going from Mr. Borden’s room into Miss Lizzie’s.

Page 5
Q. You had to go through that door?
A. The door was there. I went through the afternoon of the murder.
Q. After the murder, it was open then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you ever see it open before?
A. No. I did not have any business there before.
Q. You did not have occasion to go up there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you ever know of anybody before the murder going up the back way into the front part, or going up the front way into the back part?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did Miss Lizzie ever use the back stairs to go to her room by?
A. I never knew her too.
Q. Did Mr. or Mrs. Borden ever use the front stairs to go to their room?
A. I never saw them.
Q. You saw Mrs. Borden when she came down the back stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What were you doing when she came down?
A. I was getting breakfast.
Q. Was that before or after the ice man came?
A. Before.
Q. What did she do after she got down?
A. She asked me what I had for breakfast. I told her what I had. She told me what to get.
Q. Did she go to doing anything?
A. She went in the sitting room.
Q. Do you know what she did in there?
A. I could not tell.
Q. You did not go in there with her?
A. No Sir.
Q. Who was the next one you saw of the family, after Mrs. Borden?
A. Mr. Borden.
Q. How soon after her did you see him?
A. It may be ten minutes after her, he came down the back way.
Q. What did he do when he came down?
A. I think he went in the sitting room; I am not sure.
Q. He did not go out of doors?
A. He went out of doors before breakfast.
Q. Where did he go out of doors, do you know?
A. Out in the yard from the back door.
Q. How long did he stay out in the yard?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Did anybody go out with him when he went out?
A. No sir.

Page 6
Q. You did not see where he went in the back yard either?
A. He went in the barn and got some water.
Q. Is there a faucet in the barn?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. City water?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did he do with the water?
A. Took a slop pail out and threw it all over the yard.
Q. You mean he emptied some slops?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Wherebouts did he empty the slops?
A. Right out in the yard.
Q. Then drew some water into the pail?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long was he gone?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Any longer than time enough to do that?
A. I dont think so.
Q. He was not gone any longer than that?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where were you when he went out in the yard?
A. In the kitchen.
Q. All the time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was the door from the kitchen to the back entry open?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You said you did not shut the wooden door afterwards again at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. After he came in with his pail, what did he do then?
A. He washed, and got ready for breakfast.
Q. Washed where?
A. In the kitchen.
Q. He washed in the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was he dressed when he came down?
A. In his shirt sleeves.
Q. Have his coat with him?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did he put his coat on?
A. No Sir. He had his dressing coat, a short coat, hanging in the kitchen.
Q. He put it on there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he have his collar and neck tie on when he came down?
A. No Sir.

Page 7
Q. Did he put those on?
A. No Sir.
Q. Not for breakfast?
A. No Sir.
Q. When did he put them on?
A. After breakfast I think. He went up stairs to his room.
Q. Did you see Mr. Morse before breakfast?
A. Not until I put the breakfast on the table. I saw him at the breakfast table first.
Q. That was the first time you saw him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you have for breakfast that morning?
A. Some cold mutton and some soup, and johnny cakes.
Q. Coffee or tea?
A. Coffee.
Q. Who sat down to breakfast?
A. Mr. and Mrs. Borden and Mr. Morse.
Q. Could you tell what time it was they sat down to breakfast?
A. Not exactly. I should judge it was quarter past seven.
Q. What was the usual time of eating breakfast in that family?
A. Mr. and Mrs. Borden always ate when it was ready, when they were down.
Q. You think it was quarter past seven when they sat down?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They all three sat down together?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where were you when they were eating breakfast?
A. Out in the kitchen.
Q. Did you stay in the kitchen the most of the time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After breakfast, what took place, do you remember?
A. I took my breakfast, and then cleared off the table, and was washing my dishes.
Q. You were working in the kitchen all the time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What were they doing?
A. I dont know. They were in the sitting room.
Q. All of them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Mrs. Borden, did you see her doing anything?
A. No Sir.
Q. You saw Mr. Morse go out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who let him out?
A. Mr. Borden.
Q. How long after breakfast was that?
A. I should judge quarter of nine. I cant tell the exact time.
Page 8

Q. Which door did he let him out of?
A. The back door.
Q. Where were you when he let him out?
A. Mr. Borden let him out; I was still in the kitchen.
Q. Do you know whether he hooked the door after he went out or not, whether Mr. Borden did?
A. I do not know. I could not tell.
Q. What did Mr. Borden do after he let Mr. Morse out?
A. Went into the sitting room back again.
Q. Was that before he had put on his collar and neck tie? He had not done that then?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where was Mrs. Borden when Mr. Morse was let out?
A. She was not in the dining room. I expect she was in the sitting room.
Q. Did you see her afterwards?
A. I did about nine o’clock.
Q. After Morse had gone?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that before Mr. Borden went?
A. Mr. Borden was gone then.
Q. About what time did Mr. Borden go out?
A. I did not see him go out.
Q. Where were you when he went out?
A. I did not see him going, not to my memory.
Q. You do not know where you were?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you go down cellar?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did Mr. Borden go out when Mr. Morse did?
A. No Sir.
Q. He went to the door?
A. Yes Sir, with him.
Q. Did you hear him say anything to Mr. Morse?
A. I heard him ask him to come to dinner.
Q. What did Mr. Morse say?
A. I do not know.
Q. That is when they were at the door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After Mr. Borden had let Mr. Morse out, where did he go then?
A. The sitting room.
Q. You do not know what he did?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did he go up stairs after that?
A. He came out in the kitchen and cleaned his teeth, and then went up stairs.

Page 9

Q. Up the back stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was after Morse went; sometime afterwards, or not long?
A. Not very long.
Q. How long was he gone up stairs?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Was that the time he came down with his collar and neck tie on?
A. He put his collar and tie on up stairs.
Q. And came down with them on?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he do anything about his coat when he came down that time?
A. I did not see him. He went in the sitting room.
Q. Where did he keep the coat that he wore out of doors?
A. In the dining room.
Q. Did you see him with that on?
A. No Sir.
Q. So the last time you saw him before he went out, he had his house coat on?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You say you did not see him go out?
A. No Sir.
Q. You do not know who let him out, or whether he went out the back way or not?
A. I do not know.
Q. Did you go out of the kitchen anywhere?
A. I was out in the back yard.
Q. What were you doing out there?
A. I was out in the back yard; I was not feeling very well, and I was out there.
Q. How long did you stay out there?
A. I might be out there ten or fifteen minutes.
Q. Were you at the water closet?
A. No Sir.
Q. I do not want to ask you any questions you do not want to answer about it.
A. I was sick to my stomach, and was out in the yard, and I was vomiting.
Q. Where in the yard were you?
A. Out near the pear tree.
Q. You went out there to vomit?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know whether Mr. Morse went off at that time or not?
A. He was gone off then.
Q. How do you know?
A. I know he was.
Page 10

Q. When you came back, did you see Mrs. Borden?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see her after you came back?
A. Not until nine o’clock.
Q. When you went out in the back yard, was it before Mr. Morse went off?
A. No Sir, after he went off.
Q. How soon after he went off?
A. Maybe ten or five minutes; I cannot tell.
Q. When you came back again, where did you go then?
A. Into the kitchen.
Q. Where did you see Mrs. Borden after that?
A. After washing my dishes.
Q. Did you wash your dishes before you went out in the yard sick, or after you came back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you saw Mrs. Borden, where did you see her?
A. In the dining room, dusting. She wanted to know if I had anything particular to do that day. I told her no. Did she want anything? Yes, she said she wanted the windows washed. I asked her how. She said on
both sides, inside and outside; they were very dirty.
Q. Did you have any usual time to wash the windows?
A. No Sir.
Q. How often did you use to wash them?
A. Sometimes once a month, and probably twice a month.
Q. Did you see Mrs. Borden after that?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where did she go to then?
A. I could not tell you. I came out, and shut the dining room, and was in the kitchen.
Q. You shut the dining room door and went in the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When did you next see her after that?
A. Not until I saw her dead.
Q. That was the last time you saw Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that before Lizzie came down?
A. No. Lizzie was after getting through her breakfast then.
Q. When Mrs. Borden spoke to you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you saw Mrs. Borden, and had that talk with her, Lizzie was out in the kitchen eating her breakfast?
A. She was through her breakfast. She was not in the kitchen.
Q. Where was she?
A. I do not know.
Q. You had seen Lizzie before then?
A. Yes Sir, before that, when she came down stairs.

Page 11
Q. Did Lizzie come down stairs before you went out in the yard to vomit?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where was Lizzie when you went out in the yard?
A. Eating on the kitchen table.
Q. When you came back was she still in the kitchen?
A. I left her in the kitchen when I went out in the yard.
Q. When you came back, you do not remember whether she was there or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. When Lizzie came down did she have anything to say?
A. I asked her what did she want for breakfast. She did not know, she did not want any. If she felt like eating something, she would have some coffee and cookies.
Q. About what time was that?
A. I dont know what time it was. I could not tell.
Q. When Mrs. Borden said that to you about washing windows, do you know where Lizzie was then?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was the last time you saw Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir. She had the feather duster in her hand dusting the dining room. I left her there, and went back into the kitchen.
Q. When you went back into the kitchen, did you see Lizzie?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was she in the kitchen or dining room?
A. No Sir. I did not see her.
Q. You did not go in the sitting room then?
A. No Sir.
Q. You do not know whether she was in the sitting room or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was the last you saw of Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where she went after that, you do not know?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was after both men had gone?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you came in from vomiting, did you hook the screen door then?
A. I could not tell. I do not know whether I did or not.
Q. Did you usually hook the door?
A. Yes. I always had a habit of hooking the door. I do not know whether I did it that day or not. I cannot tell.
Q. Did you shut the door into the kitchen when you left Mrs. Borden in the dining room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. At that time you did not see Lizzie, and do not know where Lizzie was?
A. No Sir.

Page 12
Q. What did you do then?
A. I cleaned up my kitchen, and straightened up things.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. Washed the windows.
Q. What preparation did you make about washing the windows?
A. I went down cellar and got a pail, and came up, and got a brush out of the closet, and went out to the barn and got a stick.
Q. You went down cellar and got a pail?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Went into the closet?
A. And got a big brush that sticks in the handle.
Q. And out where?
A. Out in the barn to get the stick.
Q. When you started to go out in the barn, do you remember how you found the door then?
A. Miss Lizzie came through the kitchen then, as I started to go out in the barn with a pail. She was at
the back door.
Q. You had the pail?
A. Yes. I was outside. She was at the back door. She wanted to know if I was to wash windows. I said
yes. I told her she need not hook the door, for I would be around there; but I told her she could hook it if she wanted to, and I would get the water in the barn.
Q. Where was she standing at that time?
A. In the back entry.
Q. Had she said anything about hooking the door?
A. No Sir.
Q. How came you to say that to her?
A. I thought she might hook it, and I could not get in. She was standing in the back entry then.
Q. How near the screen door was she then?
A. Pretty near it; not very far from it.
Q. Was you going out to get your pail then, or handle.
A. The handle.
Q. What did you say you said about getting the water?
A. I said I would get the water in the barn.
Q. What did she say?
A. Nothing.
Q. When you started to go out, to go through the screen door, was it hooked then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had to unhook it to go out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who was the last person out of that, before that, that you know of?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Had you been down cellar before that morning, before you went to get the pail?
A. I went down after some coal that morning, and some wood to start the fire with.

Page 13
Q. That was one trip?
A. No, I went down first for the wood, and took the ashes down, and brought the wood, and went for
the coal.
Q. Did you use the water closet down cellar that morning?
A. No Sir.
Q. The next time you went down to the cellar was when you went down to get the pail?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you get the water in the barn?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you any idea how long that was after Mrs. Borden told you to wash the windows?
A. Half and hour I should judge.
Q. During that half hour you were engaged in cleaning up your kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was Miss Lizzie doing?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Did you see her during that time?
A. I do not think I did, not to my memory.
Q. When was the next time you saw her after going out to vomit, then you left her in the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir, eating breakfast.
Q. When was the next time you saw her, was it when she came to the screen door, and you were outside?
A. Yes Sir, to my memory.
Q. During the meantime you had not seen her?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where she was, you do not know?
A. No Sir.
Q. Had anything been said by either her or Mrs. Borden, in your presence, about doing up the spare room?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or doing the work in the spare room?
A. No Sir.
Q. You had nothing to do with the work in the spare room?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you know who did do the work in the spare room?
A. I did not know as Mrs. Borden ever done it before, excepting her own friends were there.
Q. Whether she did it that morning, you dont know?
A. No Sir.
Q. So the next time you saw Lizzie after she was eating breakfast was when you were out in the yard. Where were you when you saw her? You saw her eating whatever breakfast she ate in the kitchen?
A. I went out in the back yard, and left her in the kitchen. Then I
Page 14
next saw her when I started to wash the windows; I was outside the screen door.
Q. Had you got the stick then?
A. No Sir. I had the pail and brush and was just outside the screen door.
Q. What did you say to her about the door?
A. She asked me if I was to wash windows. I says “yes. You no need to lock the screen door. I will bearound here. You may lock it if you want to. I will get the water in the barn.” She did not say anything to that.
Q. Did she stay there to the screen door, or go away from it?
A. I do not know what she done. I went into the barn.
Q. When you came out of the barn, did you see her?
A. No Sir.
Q. How many windows outside did you wash?
A. Six.
Q. Which?
A. The sitting room, two, and the parlor and the dining room.
Q. You were on both sides of the house then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You were also on the front side of the house too?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How many windows in the parlor?
A. Two.
Q. One on the front and one on the side?
A. Three, I washed three in the parlor.
Q. One side.
A. Two in the dining room and two in the sitting room.
Q. That is all you did wash outside?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. During the time you were washing windows outside, did you go in the house?
A. Yes Sir, I went in after a dipper.
Q. Where did you go for a dipper?
A. In the sink.
Q. Did you go anywhereelse besides in the sink?
A. No Sir. It was when I got through washing them with the brush.
Q. To throw the water up on to them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You washed all the five windows with the brush before you began with the dipper?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not have a hose, but used the dipper instead?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was pretty near the end of the job when you went after the dipper?

Page 15
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had been all around with the brush?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were the windows shut?
A. I shut them before I went out first.
Q. How many did you shut before you first went out, all of them?
A. I think I shut one in the sitting room, and two in the dining room.
Q. Was the other one in the sitting room already shut?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So when you went out to wash the windows the windows were all shut up?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you were around shutting up the windows, did you see anything of Mrs. Borden or Lizzie?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was that the last thing before you went out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. As soon as you got out, you saw Miss Lizzie at the back screen door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you were going through the dining room or sitting room or parlor—
A. I did not go in the parlor at all.
Q. In the sitting room or dining room you did not see Miss Lizzie or Mrs. Borden?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you go where you could see in the front hall?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you go by the front hall door, or was it shut up?
A. I did not notice.
Q. You did not notice her anywhere, or hear her?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was the last thing you did before you went out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go in the house before you completed the washing the windows for anythingelse besides thedipper?
A. No Sir.
Q. For that you only went to the sink?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where is the sink, right opposite the screen door?
A. It is the left side of the kitchen, next to the back yard.
Q. That is where the back entry comes out?
A. It is way in the back part of the kitchen.
Q. When you went down cellar to get the pail, which way did you go down?
A. Down the kitchen way inside.

Page 16
Q. Did you use the outside door?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you ever use that outside door?
A. No Sir, not except when I would wash.
Q. When did you wash?
A. I washed Monday and hung them out the Tuesday.
Q. Did you then use the back door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was it open then? I mean the cellar back door, did you use it the day you washed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And the day you hung the clothes out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Both the same day?
A. I only used it the day I hung them out. I had no business going out the day I washed them, for I did
not hang them out.
Q. You used the cellar door that goes into the yard the day you hung the clothes out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who opened that door?
A. Myself. I shut it when I got through.
Q. Did you fasten it?
A. Yes Sir, with a bolt inside.
Q. Did you unbolt it again during that week?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you take any notice whether it was unbolted or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you try to use it?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you know of anybodies going in or out of that back door any time that week?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you notice it after the murder was committed?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not take any notice of it then?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you know whether Mr. Borden had anything to do about seeing that the back door was shut up?
A. Yes Sir. He always seen a Monday, or whatever day the clothes would be taken in, that it was
locked; for he always took in the clothes line himself.
Q. And saw that the door was locked?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he do that on Tuesday?
A. I suppose he did. He always came through to see if it was open.
Q. Did you see him do it on Tuesday?
A. No Sir I did not.
Page 17
Q. You did shut up the door yourself on Tuesday, and locked it by a bolt inside?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Anythingelse besides a bolt?
A. No Sir.
Q. What room did that let into?
A. Into the washroom.
Q. Have you any particular idea how long it took you to wash the windows outside?
A. No. I should think it was twenty minutes past ten when I got in the house.
Q. How do you fix that time?
A. By the way I had the other work to do?
Q. You estimate it by the amount of work you had to do?
A. Yes. I did not look at any time, but I judged by the work I had to do.
Q. Which was the longest part of the job, the doing it with the brush, or swashing the water on with the dipper?
A. With the brush I guess.
Q. That was the longest part of it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is that a good deal the longest part of the work?
A. It is longer to do it with a brush than with the water.
Q. When you came in and got the dipper, and came out again, you washed, threw the water on the windows to make them clean?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Shut up all the time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did you get the water that you worked with?
A. In the barn.
Q. There is a faucet there, is there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you any idea how many pails of water you used?
A. I dont know.
Q. A good many, or not a great many.
A. I guess a good many.
Q. Both for the brush work and the dipper work?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you remember which side you washed first, the dining room side or the sitting room?
A. The sitting room.
Q. That is not the side the parlor is on?
A. No Sir.
Q. There is only two windows on that side of the house?
A. No Sir.
Q. You washed that side first?
A. Yes Sir.

Page 18
Q. You did not wash the kitchen at all?
A. No Sir, I washed the parlor window first, next to the sitting room, and the dining room last.
Q. Then you did the dipper work the same way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Went around the sitting room first, and then the parlor, and then the dining room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The windows were shut all the time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. I came in and got the hand basin and went in the sitting room and started to wash the sitting room windows inside.
Q. Still shut up, were they?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went in through the screen door, and shut it up and hooked it when you came in?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Took the hand basin and went to washing the sitting room windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you came in at that time, did you see Miss Lizzie?
A. I do not think I did. No Sir, I did not.
Q. So as I understand you, you had not seen her after she came to the back screen door, as you began your work?
A. No Sir, not to my memory.
Q. Where she was, you do not know?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not hear her either?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see Mrs. Borden when you came inside and began to wash the sitting room windows?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see any person around the house when you were washing the windows outside?
A. No Sir.
Q. In through the windows, did you see anybody, or did you see anybody in the yard?
A. No Sir.
Q. You say you washed the sitting room windows inside first?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did Mr. Borden come in any time during that time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What stage of the work were you at. How far had you got along with the washing, when he came in?
A. I had part of one window washed, that was the upper part.
Q. The upper part of one window?
A. Yes Sir.
Page 19
Q. That would be quarter of the work in that room, done?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did you know he had come?
A. I heard him at the door. I cannot tell did he ring the bell or not, but I heard a person at the door trying
to get in; and I let him in.
Q. What was it you heard exactly?
A. Somebody trying to unlock the door.
Q. You was then in the sitting room washing the windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do?
A. I went and let him in.
Q. It was Mr. Borden was it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you any idea what time that was?
A. It might be later than half past ten; I could not tell.
Q. What locks on the front door did you find locked when you let him in?
A. The bolt and a common key that I turned on both sides.
Q. Anythingelse?
A. No Sir.
Q. A spring lock?
A. Yes Sir. He had a key.
Q. He unlocked that from the outside?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that spring lock set to lock the door up when it was shut?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Up to the time you let Mr. Borden in, had you seen Miss Lizzie?
A. She was up stairs at the time I let him in.
Q. Where up stairs?
A. She might be in the hall, for I heard her laugh.
Q. Up the back or front stairs?
A. The front stairs.
Q. At the time you let Mr. Borden in?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that the first you had heard or seen of her since you spoke to her at the back door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had not seen her or Mrs. Borden during the intermediate time?
A. No Sir.
Q. What was the occasion of her laugh?
A. I got puzzled on the door, I said something, and she laughed at it; I supposed that must make her laugh, I dont know.
Q. She laughed when you said something?
A. Yes Sir. I did not expect the door was locked. I went to open it. I was puzzled; I went to unlock it twice.
Q. What was it you said, if it is not too bad to repeat?
A. No. I did not say much.

Page 20
Q. Some exclamation you made when you had trouble with the door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that the time she laughed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she laugh out loud?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Say anything?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see her then?
A. No Sir.
Q. How soon did you see her?
A. It might be five or ten minutes after she came down stairs; she came through the front hall, I don’t know whether she came from up stairs. She came through the sitting room, I was in the sitting room.
Q. Where did Mr. Borden go when he came in?
A. Into the dining room.
Q. You were at work in the sitting room then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did he do in the dining room?
A. He sat at the head of the lounge in a chair when I saw him.
Q. There is a lounge in the dining room too?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is not the lounge he was found dead on?
A. No Sir.
Q. He sat in a chair? What doing?
A. Reading.
Q. You were still at work in the sitting room, washing the windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Had you finished washing the sitting room windows when she came down?
A. No Sir.
Q. You were still engaged in washing the windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see her when you let Mr. Borden in, or only hear her?
A. No Sir, heard her.
Q. When she came down, what room did she come into from the front hall?
A. In the sitting room where I was; then she went into the dining room.
Q. That is where Mr. Borden was?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear her say anything to Mr. Borden?
A. I heard her ask him if he had any mail for her. I heard her telling her father very slowly that her mother got a note, that Mrs. Borden had a note that morning, and had gone out.
Q. You heard her telling that very slowly?

Page 21
A. Yes Sir, to her father.
Q. Had got a note?
A. From some sick person. Of course the conversation was very low, I did not pay any attention to it; but I heard her telling her father that.
Q. What else did you hear her say to her father?
A. Not any more.
Q. What happened then, did she stay there?
A. I do not know where she went then, I cannot tell.
Q. Do you know whether she stayed in that room or not?
A. No Sir, I do not.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I stayed washing the windows, right along until I got through.
Q. In the sitting room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I came right into the dining room.
Q. Where was Mr. Borden when you came into the dining room?
A. After coming down stairs from his room.
Q. Did you see him go?
A. I saw him take the key from the shelf.
Q. Was that after Miss Lizzie spoke to him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did he take the key from?
A. Off the sitting room shelf.
Q. How did he go to go up stairs, which way?
A. The back way.
Q. How long was he gone?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Was you washing windows in the sitting room when he went up the back stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were you when he came down?
A. I was just taking the step ladder from the sitting room into the dining room.
Q. When you went into the dining room, did you see Miss Lizzie then?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was she in the dining room or sitting room?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see her in the kitchen?
A. No Sir. I did not go out in the kitchen.
Q. When Mr. Borden went out into the kitchen, you saw him go out?
A. Yes Sir, he came out of the kitchen door, and went back again.
Q. Did you see whether Miss Lizzie went with him then?
A. I did not notice.
Q. You saw Mr. Borden when he came back?
A. Yes Sir.

Page 22
Q. What did he do then when he came back?
A. He let the window down, it was up with the screen in. He took a chair and sat down near the window with a book or paper in his hand.
Q. Which window was that?
A. The sitting room.
Q. Sat in a chair near the window with a book or paper in his hand?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was anybody in the room then?
A. Not as I saw.
Q. You could see?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was it the usual place to keep the key of his room on the shelf in the sitting room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That room was kept locked?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is the room that lets in from the back stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he bring the key back when he came back?
A. Yes Sir, and put it on the shelf.
Q. He sat down with a book or a paper near the window in the sitting room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In a rocking chair?
A. An easy chair I guess.
Q. Had he then put on his house coat?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. What was you doing then?
A. Started to wash the first window in the dining room.
Q. Had you seen Miss Lizzie about then?
A. No Sir.
Q. How soon did you see Miss Lizzie?
A. I was washing the last window, she came out from the sitting room into the kitchen, and brought in an ironing board.
Q. She came from the sitting room through the dining room?
A. Yes Sir, and she went out in the kitchen, and brought in an ironing board, put it on the dining room table and started to iron.
Q. That was while you was finishing the last window?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She appeared then from the sitting room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was the door from the sitting room to the kitchen open then?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Was the door from the dining room to the kitchen open then?
A. She opened it.
Q. She appeared from the sitting room into the dining room, and went into the kitchen, and got the board?

Page 23
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had not seen her before since she came down and asked about the mail?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where she went to meanwhile, you do not know?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where did she put the ironing board?
A. On the dining room table.
Q. Wherebouts did you say she put the ironing board?
A. On the dining room table.
Q. Was the table in the middle of the room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was it set with dishes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You kept it set all the time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not clear it away, and put on a red cloth, or something, but kept it set all the time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she lay the ironing board right on the table, or from the table to somethingelse?
A. Right on the table.
Q. Which part of the table was that, do you remember now, near the kitchen door, or what?
A. I should say on the corner of the table. She left it on the dining room table.
Q. Which corner of the table?
A. As she came from the kitchen door in, the same side.
Q. Nearest to the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was this a regular sized ironing board?
A. No Sir, a very small one; it was not the one I used to use.
Q. Something specially for this business, I suppose?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Give me a little idea of the size of it. Was it as big as that there?
A. No Sir, as big as that.
Q. In front of you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did the ironing, I suppose, for the family?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was this that she was ironing?
A. Handkerchiefs. She always done them herself.
Q. It was just as you was finishing the dining room windows that she brought the ironing board in?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she say anything to her father then?
A. I did not hear her.
Page 24
Q. Did you hear her father move, or do anything in his room?
A. No Sir, not to my knowledge.
Q. Did you hear him leave the chair he was sitting in, or see him leave the chair?
A. No Sir. I could not have seen him from the first window I started to wash. The door was right facing the window.
Q. Did you see him from that window?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. He was sitting in the chair then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was while you were washing the other window Lizzie appeared, and went into the kitchen, and got her ironing board?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do then when you finished washing the window?
A. I went out in the kitchen, and Miss Lizzie was talking to me a little while, not very long.
Q. What was she saying?
A. She asked was I going out that afternoon. I told her I did not know, I might, and I might not. I was not feeling very well. She said Mrs. Borden was going out, or gone out. I could not catch the two words she said; that somebody was sick. I asked her who was sick. She said she did not know, but she had a note that morning. “If you go out, be sure and lock the door, because I may be out.”
Q. Did she say anythingelse?
A. No Sir, not in the dining room.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went out in the kitchen.
Q. She was then in the dining room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Hung up my cloth I had to wash with, and threw away the water, and went up stairs in my room.
Q. Where was Miss Lizzie?
A. She came out in the kitchen as I was starting to go up stairs.
Q. What for, if you saw?
A. She came out, and she told me there was a sale in Sargeants that afternoon of dress goods for eight cents a yard. I told her I would have one.
Q. Did she say anythingelse to you?
A. No Sir, that was all.
Q. That was before you went up stairs?
A. Yes Sir, just as I was starting.
Q. Was she then having her flats in her hand?
A. I could not tell whether she had her flats or not. She went in the dining room back again.
Q. Did you see her take her flats in her hand before you went up stairs?

Page 25

A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see her with her flats in her hand when you went up stairs?
A. I do not know. She was ironing when I was in the dining room.
Q. How long did you stay in the kitchen?
A. Not more than three or four minutes.
Q. She came out and told you that about the sale, and then you went up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see Mr. Borden again? You said you saw him as you was washing next to the last window
in the dining room, and after you got around the partition you did not see him?
A. No Sir.
Q. If he changed his position from there to the sofa you did not know it?
A. No Sir.
Q. When you went up stairs, what time was it?
A. It might be four or five minutes to eleven.
Q. How do you know that?
A. By the length of time I was up stairs when it struck eleven o’clock.
Q. How soon after you got up stairs did you hear it strike eleven?
A. About three or four minutes.
Q. After you got up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you take any notice of the fact that it struck eleven?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What notice did you take of it?
A. My clock was on the bureau.
Q. Where were you at the time?
A. I was laying on the bed.
Q. You were laying down?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not take your clothes off?
A. No Sir.
Q. How long did you say it was after you got up stairs before the clock struck?
A. I should say it was three minutes.
Q. Very soon then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go to sleep, so far as you know?
A. No Sir.
Q. Why was you not at work getting your dinner at that time?
A. I thought I had time enough to start to get dinner at half past eleven, with the dinner I had to get.
Q. Was it your habit to go up stairs that way?
Page 26
A Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. When I got through with my work down stairs, if I had not anythingelse to do, I always went up stairs, before I started to get dinner, if I had time.
Q. How did you leave the fire when you went up stairs?
A. I did not see the fire at all.
Q. When was the last time you had anything to do with the fire?
A. After getting breakfast, and washing my dishes, I did not see the fire again. I had no business with it.
Q. Did you look out the window when you were up stairs, you did not, did you?
A. No Sir.
Q. You lay right on the bed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When were the flats put on the stove, that were used for the ironing?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. They were on the stove?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know what the dinner was that day?
A. Yes Sir, some soup to warm over, and some cold mutton.
Q. Potatoes?
A. No Sir; potatoes in the soup.
Q. Had you put the soup on when you went up stairs?
A. No Sir.
Q. You were coming down to do that about half past eleven?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Cold mutton, of course, did not require any cooking at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not pay any attention to the fire when you went up stairs at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was it a coal or wood fire?
A. A little coal fire I started in the morning.
Q. How did you usually warm up the soup with coal or wood?
A. In hot weather, we usually used the wood.
Q. You let the coal fire go out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You were coming down stairs at half past eleven to get the dinner?
A. Yes Sir, probably sooner.
Q. Did Miss Lizzie say anything more to you before you went up stairs besides what you said?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you hear anything down stairs?
A. No Sir.

Page 27
Q. Did you go in or out of the screen door after you came in from washing the windows?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did anybodyelse, so far as you saw?
A. No Sir.
Q. When you came in, you fastened it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After you let Mr. Borden in, did you shut the front door up again?
A. He shut it up.
Q. When did you next see anything, or hear anything?
A. Not until Miss Lizzie called me.
Q. What time was that, as near as you can fix it?
A. I might be up stairs ten or fifteen minutes, as near as I can think, after I went up stairs.
Q. Have you anyway of fixing that, or is it just your estimation?
A. That is what I think, I did not look at the clock when I came down. That is the length of time I thought I was there.
Q. You were still lying on the bed—
A. Yes Sir.
Q. — when she called to you. What did she say?
A. She holloed to me. Of course I knew something was the matter, she holloed so loud. I asked her what was the matter. She said “come down quick”, that her father was dead.
Q. She called your name, Maggie?
A. Yes Sir. I came down, and asked what was the matter, and was going into the sitting room. She told me to go quick for Dr. Bowen.
Q. Where was she when you went down?
A. Standing in the back door, leaning against it, right by the screen door.
Q. The wooden door, that you opened in the morning, that was not shut during the day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was at the foot of the stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The stairs came down near the screen door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she say anything when you got down stairs?
A. She said “go for Dr. Bowen”. I ran ahead, I did not know what was the matter. She told me to “go quick and get Dr. Bowen.”
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went right over to Dr. Bowen’s.
Q. Who did you find there?
A. Mrs. Bowen.
Q. You told her what had happened?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Dr. Bowen was not there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Then what did you do?
Page 28
A. Came back.
Q. Dr. Bowen lives right across the street?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who was there when you came back?
A. Nobody but Miss Lizzie. I told her he was not in. I told her what Mrs. Bowen told me. She told me
to go after Miss Russell.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went after her.
Q. Where does she live?
A. On Borden street.
Q. How far away is that?
A. I do not know, it is a good ways away. I could not tell you exactly how long it is.
Q. Did you find Miss Russell?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Had anybodyelse come in when you came back there, telling that Dr. Bowen was not there?
A. No Sir, I did not see anybody.
Q. Where was Miss Lizzie when you came back from Mrs. Bowen’s?
A. Where I left her, standing at the door.
Q. At that time when you went out after Dr. Bowen, did you find the screen door locked?
A. No Sir.
Q. Shut up?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you come back with Miss Russell?
A. Ahead of her.
Q. When you came back, who did you find there then?
A. Dr. Bowen was ahead of me, he stepped out of his carriage as I came up Second street. Dr. Bowen went in ahead of me.
Q. When you got in, who did you find there?
A. I think Mrs. Churchill was in when I got in there.
Q. She is the next door neighbor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She was in when you got back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was said when you got back?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Where was Miss Lizzie when you got back?
A. She was there.
Q. Wherebouts?
A. I could not tell you where, I think she must be in the kitchen; I think she was in the kitchen.
Q. Who else was there besides Mrs. Churchill?
A. That is all I remember, Mrs. Churchill and Dr. Bowen.
Q. Did you then see the body?
A. No Sir.
Q. What happened then, what was the next thing you remember. I
Page 29
suppose you got pretty confused by that time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What is the next thing you remember to have taken place?
A. Dr. Bowen said Mr. Borden was murdered, as I went into the dining room.
Q. Did you see anything of the ironing board when you got back?
A. I did not notice it, but afterwards I saw it on the kitchen table.
Q. Where it belonged?
A. No Sir; it belonged in the closet.
Q. Where were the handkerchiefs?
A. I did not notice them.
Q. About how many handkerchiefs did she have to iron?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Did she iron anybodys but her own?
A. That is all.
Q. Did you see the handkerchiefs there when you got back?
A. No Sir, I did not think of them.
Q. Was anything more said then that you remember of?
A. No Sir.
Q. What did you do then?
A. We were talking, I said I would like to know where Mrs. Borden was. I said I would go over to Mrs. Whitehead’s. She said she would like us to search for Mrs. Borden, she told us to go and search for her. I said I would go over there, if I knew where the house was. She said she was positive she heard her coming in, and would not we go up stairs and see.
Q. Who said that?
A. Miss Lizzie Borden. I said I would not go up stairs; and Mrs. Churchill said she was willing to go with me; so me and Mrs. Churchill went up the front stairs. There we found Mrs. Borden.
Q. Did you see her before you got in?
A. I saw her as I went in; but I stood at the foot of the bed and looked at her.
Q. Was the door open then into the room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you disturb or touch the body in any way?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did anybody while you were there?
A. No Sir.
Q. You said you saw her before you went in?
A. Yes Sir, I could see her as I went in. Of course the bed was not a very high bed, I could see her body, her dress; and then I stood at the foot of the bed and looked at her.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I came down stairs.
Q. Did anyone else come by that time?

Page 30
A. No Sir, Mrs. Churchill came with me. I do not know whether she went into the room or not, I cannot tell. Me and her came down stairs and she told Dr. Bowen that Mrs. Borden was up stairs.
Q. Where was Lizzie then?
A. In the kitchen with Miss Russell.
Q. What then?
A. That is all I done there.
Q. Then I suppose the other people came?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see Dr. Dolan when he came?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see what he did when he came?
A. No Sir, I did not go into the rooms any more.
Q. You stayed in the kitchen after that?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go down cellar?
A. Yes, with some of the officers.
Q. What officers?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Did you see any axes or hatchets in there?
A. Yes Sir in a box back of the furnace where Mr. Borden used to keep the wood.
Q. When you went down this time with the officers, were they there?
A. Yes Sir, They asked me to go down with them.
Q. They were in a box back of the furnace?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that the first time you had seen them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Had you ever seen them before?
A. No Sir.
Q. Which officers went down?
A. I could not tell you one of them.
Q. You do not see any of them here?
A. I do not think I know any of them now.
Q. Did you see whether the outside cellar door was open then?
A. No Sir I did not.
Q. Did you notice it was, or was not?
A. I did not notice anything about it.
Q. How soon was that after you got back that you went down stairs with the officers?
A. Quite a while I guess.
Q. That was the first time you had seen the axes, when the officers went down?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had not seen the axes that morning before that?
A. No Sir. I had no business to go to that place at all.
Q. You had been down stairs before?
A. Yes Sir.

Page 31
Q. You had not seen any axes before that time?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not notice anything about the cellar door when you went down?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you hear Miss Lizzie say at any time where she was when her father was killed?
A. I asked her where she was. She said she was out in the back yard.
Q. Did she say what she was doing in the back yard?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was anything more said by her excepting that?
A. No Sir, not to me.
Q. In your hearing did you hear her say anything beside that?
A. No Sir.
Q. When did she say that, if you remember?
A. I think after I was getting back from being after Miss Russell.
Q. Do you remember what dress she had on that morning?
A. No Sir.
Q. You have no idea at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. You could not tell whether she had a dress and waist of the same kind, or different?
A. No Sir, nothing about it.
Q. Could you tell whether she had an apron on?
A. I could not tell whether she did or not.
Q. Had Mrs. Borden said anything to you about going out that day?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was it her habit to tell you when she was going out?
(Objected to.) (Court) Your objection is sustained as a matter of course.(Mr. Knowlton) As to whether it was Mrs. Borden’s habit to notify her hen she was going out. Isuppose I could show it was her universal habit to notify this girl when she went out for any errand
whatever. I am going to show she did not this morning.
Q. Had she told you anything about going out that morning?
A. No Sir.
Q. Whether it was her habit?
(Objected to.)
(Court) Excluded.
Q. The only person you have heard anything about going out from, was from Lizzie?
A. Yes Sir.
(Objected to as leading.)

Page 32

(August 27, 1892)

Q. Had there been any sickness in the family before that Thursday that you know of?
A. Yes Sir, they were sick Wednesday.
Q. What time Wednesday did you first know of it?
A. In the morning, as they got down stairs.
Q. Who is “they”?
A. Mr. Borden came down first.
Q. When who got down stairs?
A. Mr. Borden came down first that morning.
Q. What was it about their being sick?
A. Mrs. Borden came down, and asked me if I heard they were sick all night. I said no. She said her and Mr. Borden were sick all night, taken with vomiting.
Q. That you heard Wednesday morning?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did they appear to be Wednesday morning?
A. They looked pretty sick.
Q. Both of them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you hear Miss Lizzie say anything about being sick too?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Adams) What did she say?
Q. What, if anything, did you hear Lizzie say?
A. No Sir, I heard her say she was sick all night too.
Q. How did she seem to be in the morning?
A. Well, I did not notice.
Q. When did you get the coal and wood for the day?
A. In the morning when I first start the fire.
Q. What is it you get in the morning?
A. I first got the wood, and started the fire, and then went for the coal.
Q. How do you keep the fire going during the day?
A. Sometimes we keep it going, if there is any necessity for it.
Q. How, with coal or wood?
A. Sometimes with wood, more times with coal.
Q. What kind of wood do you use?
A. Hard wood.
Q. Get it where?
A. Down cellar.
Q. Did you have a wood box up in the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. One or two little things I did not touch on yesterday, that I went over; how long should you say Miss Lizzie had been ironing when you went up stairs?
A. I could not say how long it was.
Q. As near as you can tell?
Page 33
A. Probably about eight or nine minutes.
Q. When you went up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That privy out behind the barn, was that used by any member of the family, was that in use?
A. Mr. Borden used it.
Q. Did anybodyelse besides him?
A. Mrs. Borden sometimes.
Q. Did you ever know the girls to use it?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was there any horse kept there on the premises?
A. Not for the last year.
Q. Formerly was?
A. Yes Sir, there was a horse there once.
Q. When did they leave off keeping a horse, so far as you know about?
A. I should think it was a year or two, I cannot exactly tell the time.
Q. Since that time, has there been any animals kept in the barn?
A. No Sir, not as I know of.
Q. Since the horse left off being kept there, have you ever seen Lizzie go to the barn?
A. No Sir, not that I remember.
Q. Tell me again what you said yesterday about what Lizzie said about receiving a note, about her mother receiving a note.(Mr. Adams) He has already had it; he is not entitled to it again. (Mr. Knowlton) I do not know whether she said yesterday what I am trying to get at or not. (Court) You are entitled to understand the testimony. (Mr. Adams) He does not say that he does not understand it.(Court) The question may be asked.
Q. Tell that again, what Lizzie said to you about her mother’s note.
A. Lizzie Borden asked me that day if I was going out that afternoon. I said I did not know, I might, and I might not. She said “if you go out, be sure and have the doors fastened, I might go out too, and Mrs. Borden may be gone out too. She had a note this morning, a sick call.” I said “who is sick?” She said “she had a note, so it must be in town.”
Q. At any time did you have any talk with Lizzie more than what you stated?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you have any talk about her seeing or hearing Mrs. Borden?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you ask her any questions as to whether she heard anything?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or did she say anything?
A. No Sir.
Q. Calling your attention; whether you had any talk with her, in which she said anything about hearing her groan?
Page 34

(Objected to.)
(Mr. Knowlton) I have exhausted the witness’ recollection, and now direct her attention.
(Court) If it is for the purpose of refreshing her recollection of something which you are confident is within her knowledge, the question may be put in that form.
Q. Yes. Miss Lizzie said she was out in the yard, and she heard a groan.
(Mr. Adams) Heard a groan, or heard her groan?
A. Heard her father groan I should think.
Q. What did you say to her before that?
A. I asked her where she was. She said she was out in the back yard. She heard a groan, and she came in, and the screen door was wide open.
Q. When you were opening the door, the front door, and heard her laugh up stairs, did you recognize the voice?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Whose did you recognize it to be?
A. Miss Lizzie.
Q. At any time after she called you down stairs, did you see Miss Lizzie crying?
A. No Sir.
Q. At no time?
A. No Sir.
Q. That applies to the whole day, that question does.
A. No Sir.

Page 45
Cross-examination of Bridget Sullivan

Q. (Mr. Adams.) Do you want to sit down this morning, Miss Sullivan?
A. No Sir.
Q. I am going to ask you a few questions. Do I understand you to say you lived with this family two years and ten months?
A. Nine months, about.
Q. Two years and nine months?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is to say, what season of the year was it you came to Mr. Borden’s?
A. Some day in November, I think.
Q. Two years last November?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you come from another place there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Whose place was that?
A. Mrs. Remington’s in High street.
Q. How long had you lived there?
A. Seven months.
Q. Where did you live before that?
A. Mrs. Reed’s in Highland Avenue.
Q. How long did you live there?
A. Fifteen months.
Q. Where before that?
A. Out in South Bethlehem.
Q. Where is that?
A. Pennsylvania.
Q. Then you came from Pennsylvania here to Fall River?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you know anybody in Fall River when you came here?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you any friends or relatives here?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In consequence of that fact you came here?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long had you lived in So. Bethlehem, Pennsylvania?
A. Twelve months.
Q. Were you at work there in a family?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What doing?
A. House work.
Q. Where did you live before that?
A. Came from Ireland.
Q. Did you land in New York?
A. No Sir, Newport.
Q. You left the steamer at Newport?
Page 46
A. Yes Sir, the New York boat.
Q. You came to New York first, and went from New York to Newport?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That then is five or six years ago, is it not?
A. Six years ago the 24th of last May.
Q. How old are you?
A. Twenty-five.
Q. When was your last birthday?
A. I do not know.
Q. You do not know?
A. No Sir.
Q. Then how do you know you are twenty-five; because you have been informed so?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you ever live anywhere else than in Pennsylvania and Fall River?
A. In Newport I worked twelve months.
Q. In whose family there?
A. A hotel.
Q. What hotel?
A. The Perry house.
Q. That was when you first came to this country?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. Twelve months.
Q. Did you work anywhere else in Newport than in the Perry House?
A. No Sir.
Q. And you were at work all the time while you were in Newport. While you lived there, in the Perry House?
A. I was a little while with my friends before I went to work. I was twelve months in Newport before I left it.
Q. Friends where?
A. In Newport.
Q. Who were they?
A. Sullivans.
Q. What Sullivan is it, what is the first name?
A. Dennis.
Q. Mr. Dennis Sullivan; does he live there now?
A. I do not know.
Q. Was he a relative of yours?
A. A friend.
Q. A married man?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You stopped in the family?
A. Yes Sir, when I was out of a place.
Q. About how long did you stay in his family before you got the place?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. A week or two weeks or a month?
Page 47
A. Two or three weeks.
Q. A short time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you ever work for a Mr. Saunders, or Landers, any such name as that?
A. No Sir.
Q. What was the name of the family for whom you worked in So. Bethlehem, Pennsylvania?
A. Mr. Smiley.
Q. What was his first name?
A. Mr. Matt Smiley.
Q. Matthew Smiley?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was his business?
A. I do not know what his business was.
Q. What kind of work did you do in the Perry House at Newport?
A. Kitchen work.
Q. Have you ever testified before in this case?
A. No Sir.
Q. Ever told your story before?
A. What do you mean?
Q. I want you to understand my question, that is, whether or not you have told what you know in this case anywhere before you came into this Court Room?
A. Why, no.
Q. Did you not go before the Inquest? Have you not testified before you began telling your story yesterday?
A. I was here yesterday.
Q. Before that time, did you not tell the story at any time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was that, how long ago?
A. Tuesday, after the murder, I guess.
Q. Was it in this same room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who were present, were there any people here?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How many?
A. Three or four I think.
Q. Can you tell me who they were?
A. Mr. Knowlton was there, and the Marshal, I think.
Q. The Marshal was here?
A. I think he was, I do not know.
Q. Was someone here besides Mr. Knowlton, the District Attorney?
A. I think Dr. Dolan was here.
Q. Were they in the room when you were telling your story?
A. I think so.
Q. All the time?
A. I think so.

Page 48
Q. Who else besides Dr. Dolan and the marshal were in the room while you were telling your story?
A. I dont know.
Q. Were there some other people do you think?
A. I dont know. There were three or four folks here, I do not know who they were.
Q. Who asked you the questions?
A. Mr. Knowlton.
Q. Was your story taken down in writing?
A. I think so.
Q. Has any of it been read to you since then?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where did you go when you left the court room last night?
A. I went down in the office to wait for a carriage.
Q. In the marshal’s office?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have any talk down there?
A. No Sir. Of course there was words passed to me.
Q. Did you have any talk about your testimony then, or later?
A. No Sir.
Q. Since you left the Court Room last night, have you talked with anybody about your testimony?
A. No Sir.
Q. Has it been read to you, or your attention called to any part of it?
A. No Sir, I did not hear anything of it read.
Q. Did anybody have any talk with you; did the District Attorney talk to you last night?
A. Yes Sir, he said a few words to me down in the Marshal’s office.
Q. Was the Marshal there?
A. He was around there, I do not know whether he was listening to me.
Q. Who else was there?
A. I cannot tell who they were.
Q. Did they have any testimony, or anything, written out, or any paper which they showed you last night?
A. Mr. Knowlton showed me a little paper.
Q. What kind of a little paper?
A. I do not know what it was.
Q. Did you look at it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was it in writing?
A. In printing I think.
Q. Was it something that you had said somewhere?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was. And had you made some mistake?
A. No Sir.
Page 49
Q. Was it something that you were going to say?
A. No Sir.
Q. Something that you had said at the other hearing?
A. No Sir. What I said was all right.
Q. I understand that. What did he show you the paper for; do you recollect?
A. I do not know.
Q. You read it, did you not?
A. No Sir, I did not.
Q. You saw it was in printing?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. He handed it to you?
A. No Sir.
Q. You said he showed it to you?
A. I said I saw it.
Q. Was he talking about that paper when he showed it to you?
A. No Sir. He read a little of it.
Q. Was that something that you had said?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When had you said it?
A. I do not know when I said it.
Q. Did you say it yesterday or at that other time when you were in this room?
A. I do not know.
Q. Had you said it at all at any time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Had you forgotten all about it?
A. No Sir.
Q. You remembered all about it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How much do you think he read to you, quite a little?
A. About half a dozen words I should judge.
Q. What were those half a dozen words?
A. I dont know.
Q. You dont know?
A. No Sir.
Q. Cant you remember?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did anybodyelse show you any paper?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was anybodyelse there beside the marshal, you say he was around there?
A. No Sir. The marshal was not there with me then.
Q. This was in the Marshal’s room, in the open room there?
A. I was sitting down there in a chair, waiting for a carriage.
Q. Was it in the marshal’s room, the open room there? It was not in a private room, it was in the public room, was it not?

Page 50
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What time did you get home last night?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. You did not stay long down there?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not stay long in the room down stairs?
A. I waited for a carriage, that is all.
Q. I do not know how long you waited for a carriage, you know.
A. I do not know either myself; I did not have no time.
Q. Did you get home to supper?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. About six o’clock?
A. I could not tell; I suppose so.
Q. You did not see anybody after that last evening?
A. No Sir.
Q. Nobodyelse showed you any paper last evening?
A. No Sir.
Q. No one has shown you any paper this morning, or any printing?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or read any half a dozen words to you?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were those words that he read to you last night anything about this groan that you testified to this
morning?
A. No Sir.
Q. How do you know they was not?
A. I know they was not.
Q. I thought you could not remember?
A. Well, they was not about that.
Q. Were they anything about the note?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were they anything about the laugh up stairs?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were they anything about her saying words slowly?
A. No Sir.
Q. Yet you cannot tell us what they were about?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did he ask you any questions about them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Simply read them to you, and said nothing?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The Wednesday night before this murder, you were out of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What door did you go out of?
A. The back door.
Q. That is the north door, the side door?
A. Yes Sir.
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Q. You slept up stairs in the attic, the back side of the house, overlooking the back yard?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. There are other rooms in the attic?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. All locked up?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Been in the habit of being locked up since you lived there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. These back stairs you went up and down were the same ones Mr. and Mrs. Borden went up and down?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They were carpeted way down to where the kitchen was?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you went out that night, did you have a key to the back door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You left the screen door unfastened?
A. Yes Sir, but the other door was locked.
Q. You always had a key to that door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. For how long?
A. I dont think I have had it quite a year yet.
Q. Did anybody come home with you that night?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did anybody come to the gate with you?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you meet anybody in particular in the street?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you have any visitors?
A. Sometimes.
Q. Did you have any men call on you?
A. No Sir.
Q. Ever since you have been at this house?
A. Not in Fall River.
Q. While you have been in this house?
A. Not anybody from Fall River.
Q. I did not ask you where they were from. When did you have anybody call on you, not from Fall River?
A. About two or three months before that I guess.
Q. That is the last time any man has called on you at the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Has any man walked home with you?
A. No Sir.
Q. Has any man seen you in the back yard?
A. No Sir.
Q. Have you met anybody in the back yard for the last two or three months?
A. No Sir.

Page 52
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you ever meet anybody in the back yard?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or sit down with anybody on the back step, or in the back yard?
A. No Sir.
Q. Never in your life?
A. I have sat down with girls on the back stairs and in the kitchen.
Q. Have you ever sat out on the back side of the house, or in the yard with girls?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or with anybody?
A. No Sir.
Q. Wednesday night you came in about what time?
A. About five minutes past ten.
Q. Everybody had gone to bed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you lock the door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you get a lamp?
A. Yes Sir, it was lighted in the kitchen.
Q. Waiting for you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you use gas there?
A. No Sir.
Q. They used lamps all through the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. This was Wednesday, the night before. These people had been sick, had they not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Mr. and Mrs. Borden had been sick, and Miss Lizzie had been taking care of them, and had been sick herself?
A. That is what they said.
Q. She looked sick, did she not?
A. I did not notice. She told me she was sick that morning.
Q. When did she tell you she was sick?
A. Wednesday morning.
Q. It was the night before, Mr. and Mrs. Borden had been taken ill?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you hear them up around?
A. No Sir.
Q. Their room was under yours?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Miss Lizzie’s was right next to theirs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Her room opened into their room?
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A Yes Sir.
Q. They were vomiting?
A. Yes Sir, that is what they said.
Q. Mrs. Borden said she was sick, or had been taken sick that night, and was sick nearly all night?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did they all come down to breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you have for breakfast?
A. Pork steak, and johnny cakes and coffee.
Q. This was Wednesday morning, after the sickness?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you have for dinner?
A. Mutton soup and mutton boiled.
Q. Was it mutton soup or a mutton stew, or a thick soup?
A. Soup.
Q. Were they all there to dinner?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Mr. Morse came about half past one, and he had his dinner alone?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you have for supper?
A. Some soup warmed over.
Q. This same soup warmed over?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Whatelse?
A. Some bread, and cake and cookies, and tea.
Q. Where they all there to supper.
A. Mrs. Borden, Miss Lizzie and Mr. Borden.
Q. Emma was away?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Emma had been away two or three weeks?
A. About two weeks I should judge.
Q. What day did she go away?
A. Thursday.
Q. Did Lizzie go with her?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When did Lizzie come home?
A. I could not tell. She came home either a Tuesday or Wednesday.
Q. Then she was gone more than three days?
A. I do not know.
Q. Did not you say yesterday she was gone three days?
A. That is what I merely came to know, so far as I could understand.
Q. Lets have it over, and see. Lizzie and Emma went away, and they went on a Thursday?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Lizzie returned on the following Tuesday you think?
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A. I think so.
Q. There is Thursday and Friday and Saturday, three; and if she came back Tuesday, she was gone five or six days instead of three, was not she? That would be right, would not it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So when you said that, you meant she was gone about three days, not exactly three days? Emma was away from that time up, until after this tragedy, this trouble?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did Lizzie go away any time after that, and before the tragedy?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Did she not go away a Saturday?
A. I dont know.
Q. Did she go away the Saturday before the tragedy?
A. I cannot remember.
Q. Did she go away Sunday?
A. I do not know.
Q. Now they were taken sick Tuesday night; do you remember what they had for supper?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What?
A. Some toasted bread, and some fish, some tea, and cake and cookies.
Q. Toasted bread, fish— fresh fish?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Broiled?
A. Fried.
Q. Sword fish?
A. Yes Sir; fried for dinner, and warmed it over for supper.
Q. That is Tuesday?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you make that bread?
A. They had baker’s bread, and some bread that I made.
Q. This bread they had for supper, was that some you made?
A. They had some of both.
Q. They did have some baker’s bread, who got that?
A. I went and got it.
Q. Who sent you?
A. I went myself.
Q. Did they ask you to go?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you take some money, or have an account?
A. When I went to set the table, I found there was not enough bread for supper, and I went to the baker’s to get some rolls. There was no rolls, I got a loaf of bread. I paid for it with my own money. When I came back Mrs. Borden gave me five cents. When I got back to the door, she met me, and was after sending me back for rolls. I told her they had none there.
Q. What sort of bread was this?
A. I do not know.

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Q. It was not brown bread?
A. No Sir.
Q. Flour bread?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you eat any of that bread?
A. No Sir.
Q. You ate some of your own bread, perhaps?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That did not make you sick?
A. No Sir.
Q. You were not taken sick that night?
A. No Sir.
Q. Now Wednesday night you had this mutton stew warmed over?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Which you had had at dinner on Wednesday?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Wednesday morning was the morning they came down stairs, and had all been sick?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had the pork steak and something for breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And Lizzie complained of being sick?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Lizzie stayed in her room all that forenoon, did not she?
A. I suppose so; I did not see her until she came to dinner.
Q. You knew she was up stairs. They were all sick and ailing that day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She did not go out at all that day, did she, so far as you know?
A. Miss Lizzie? I did not see her.
Q. So far as you know she did not go out?
A. I could not say whether she went out or not.
Q. That Wednesday morning they came down and had all been sick during the night?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They had breakfast, and they looked pretty badly, or rather Mr. and Mrs. Borden did?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And Lizzie complained?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They ate a little breakfast, and Lizzie went back up stairs to her room?
A. I suppose so. She went out of my sight, I do not know where she went.
Q. Wednesday night you went out; and came in after ten o’clock, and everybody had gone to bed, and you took your lamp and went up stairs to
Page 56
bed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Thursday morning when you came down, you went into this kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You came down the carpeted back stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You made your fire?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went down into the basement and got your kindling wood, and got your coal?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Brought up the kindling wood, and then the hod of coal?
A. The wood first, and then the coal.
Q. Did you bring down your slop pail when you came down?
A. No Sir.
Q. You do usually in the morning?
A. Sometimes.
Q. Did you that morning?
A. No Sir.
Q. At all events you went down cellar and got the kindling wood first?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Came up stairs, and started the fire in the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then went down and got some coal?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was in the cellar too?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then you went in the dining room and started setting the table?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The table was already set?
A. Yes Sir. I opened the windows and the blinds in the dining room.
Q. Then you began to get breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did you get the people to breakfast, ring a bell?
A. No Sir. I never called them; they got up themselves.
Q. How did they know it was ready?
A. They always came down themselves, before it was ready, sometimes.
Q. You went into the dining room, and opened the windows, and then went into the kitchen and got breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do in the kitchen?
A. Opened the back door first, and took in my milk; when the fire was started, went in the dining room and began to get breakfast.
Q. The table was all set?
A. I had to put a good many things on the table, such as milk and butter.
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Q. You did not put those on a long time before they sat down in that warm weather?
A. Sometimes.
Q. Did you that morning?
A. No Sir.
Q. Then you did not have anything particular to do in the dining room until breakfast was about ready?
A. No Sir.
Q. Then you went back into the kitchen, and took in your milk, and began to get breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you have for breakfast?
A. Was this Wednesday?
Q. No, Thursday morning.
A. Mrs. Borden came down directly, before I had anything under way; she asked me what did I have for breakfast. I told her. She said John was in the house. I says is that so? I says, did he sleep in the attic.She said no, he slept in the front chamber. I told her there was nothing, sure, but soup and cold mutton.She said she thought they would have that for dinner. She says there will be plenty for dinner too. She told me to warm it over, and make johnny cakes, and have coffee.
Q. You had the mutton stew or soup, of which you thought there would be enough for dinner?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had a baked johnny cake, you furnished forth hot johnny cake and some coffee?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have anythingelse for breakfast?
A. Not as I know of.
Q. You had fruit in the house?
A. Not as I know of.
Q. They were in the habit of having fruit?
A. I could not tell whether they had it that morning or not.
Q. They had bananas, did not they?
A. I could not tell.
Q. It was nothing unusual for them to have bananas?
A. Sometimes they did, and sometimes they did not.
Q. Do you know whether there was any bananas on the table that morning?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. It was nothing unusual for them to have fruit in the morning for breakfast?
A. Sometimes; they did not always have them.
Q. You did not have anything to do with the fruit when they had it?
A. I could have it when I wanted it.

Page 58
Q. I did not mean they deprived you of eating a banana if you wanted to. It was on the table or on the sideboard in the dining room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you remember any other kind of fruit they had that week or about that time?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did they have any pears?
A. No Sir.
Q. What?
A. There were pears there, but not on the table.
Q. The pears were beginning to get ripe, and were dropping off the trees in the back yard?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had tried them?
A. No Sir.
Q. How did you know they were getting ripe?
A. Mr. Borden brought some in in a basket.
Q. How long before this?
A. That very morning.
Q. The morning of the tragedy?
A. Thursday morning.
Q. Had he brought in any before?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They had been having pears there, had they, before?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How many days before that?
A. I could not tell you. He brought them in and left them on the kitchen table.
Q. What was done with them then?
A. Nothing. Sometimes he came out when they were rotten, and threw them under the barn.
Q. Who would throw them under the barn?
A. Mr. Borden.
Q. Whether or not those pears that he brought in before Thursday were any of them taken into the
dining room?
A. No Sir, I did not see them.
Q. Did he bring them in and let them rot, and then throw them away?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did not he eat any of them?
A. I dont know. They were left on the kitchen table.
Q. In the basket?
A. He brought them in a day or two before, and put them on the kitchen table, and took those out that were rotten and threw them under the barn.
Q. How were they on the kitchen table?
A. Laid right out, emptied out.
Q. What table?
A. A table right near the closet.
Q. There was a rocking chair in your kitchen?
Page 59
A. Yes Sir.
Q. This was not your cooking table the pears were on?
A. No Sir, the other table.
Q. How many other chairs were there?
A. Three more chairs.
Q. Ordinary plain chairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then you had a pantry opening out of it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were there an other rooms that opened out of the kitchen, except going into the dining room and sitting room?
A. No Sir.
Q. Then you went to work and baked the johnny cakes, and when breakfast was ready, you set on the milk and butter?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The soup had got warmed over by that time, and you sliced up some cold mutton, and set on the table?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then they came out to breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The only rooms you had been in that morning were the dining room and the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The only rooms you had been in before breakfast was laid?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then Mr. Morse came out to breakfast?
A. Yes Sir, and Mr. and Mrs. Borden.
Q. Did you go in while they were eating breakfast?
A. Putting the breakfast on the table, and pouring the water into glasses, and passed it around. I did not go in until they got through.
Q. They did not call you in for anything?
A. No Sir.
Q. They kept the coffee on the table?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did Mrs. Borden have anything to say to you that morning?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did not have any talk to you at all?
A. She spoke to me about breakfast, before that.
Q. Say anything else to you before that?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was she in the habit of asking you what work you had to do that day?
A. Right after breakfast.
Q. As soon as she had finished breakfast, she would say “well, Maggie, what have you got to do today?”
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was a common thing right after breakfast?
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A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now did Mr. Borden go out into the back yard before breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Take anything out?
A. Yes, he took his slop pail out.
Q. Did he go around back of the barn to take that out there?
A. Threw it out in the yard, I guess, and went into the barn and got some water.
Q. The door of the barn was open that Thursday morning?
A. He had a key, and opened it himself.
Q. He opened it, and got some water?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. There was running water in the barn?
A. Yes Sir, as you go into the barn, and turn to your right.
Q. It was down stairs in the barn, on the first floor of the barn, by the big doors?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did he empty that, near the back part of the yard, or midway?
A. Out in the yard.
Q. Near Dr. Chagnon’s fence?
A. Right beside the pear tree.
Q. There are a good many trees there, pear trees?
A. The next pear tree to the barn.
Q. When he went into the barn, do you know whether he went up stairs or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. How long was he there?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Then he came back again?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. This was all before breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did Mrs. Borden go out?
A. No Sir.
Q. She did not go out of the house then?
A. No Sir.
Q. This back entry way you speak of that comes in at the north door, and goes into the kitchen, was a pretty large entry way? Where did you keep the ice chest?
A. A closet that goes from the entry, in, and the ice chest sets in there.
Q. It was in a closet that opens off the entry. You do not have to bring the ice into the kitchen?
A. No Sir.
Q. You come into the entry, and put the ice in the chest?
A. Yes Sir.

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Q. Was there anything else that opened off that entry way but that closet or room where the ice chest was?
A. No.
Q. You went up stairs out of that entry way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Any hooks there on the wall, or nails, or anything to hang clothing on in the entry way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who hung clothes there?
A. Nobody hung clothes there, except my apron.
Q. Was not there a hat ever hung there?
A. No Sir, not in that entry.
Q. What, the back entry?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you ever see a woman’s hat hung up there?
A. No Sir, except mine.
Q. You hung up your own hat there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did Miss Lizzie ever have a hat hung there?
A. I did not see it.
Q. A sort of a soft felt hat, or a rough hat?
A. She might while brushing it, or something. She did not keep it there that I recollect.
Q. Any other clothing?
A. A shawl that belongs to the house; sometimes I used to take it on my shoulders to go to the store, or something like that.
Q. Have you given me a description of all the clothing you were in the habit of keeping in that kitchen that goes to the north door, or rather in that entry way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have a clothes closet in the kitchen?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were there not closets connected with any of the rooms down stairs?
A. There was one in the sitting room, I think.
Q. What was kept there?
A. I do not know what they kept; a basket with clothes in it.
Q. Mrs. Borden had her bonnet and shawl down stairs?
A. Yes Sir, she kept them in the closet in the sitting room; sometimes her common shawl was there.
Q. If she wanted to go out, she could go to the closet in the sitting room and get her bonnet and shawl, and go out without going up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What else was kept there?
A. Some clothes belonging to Mr. Borden, I guess.
Q. This jacket he put on in the morning, was not a dressing gown, but a common cardigan jacket?
A. Yes Sir.
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Q. Where was that kept?
A. In the sitting room, as you go into the sitting room from the kitchen; there was a nail there.
Q. By the stove?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In the sitting room closet, beside the bonnet and shawl, and the outside gear Mrs. Borden kept there, what clothing did Mr. Borden have there?
A. I used to see coats there sometimes, old coats.
Q. How do you know Mr. Borden went into the barn that morning after he emptied his pail?
A. I saw him.
Q. Where were you when you saw him?
A. In the kitchen.
Q. Looking out of the window?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You are quite sure you did not go into any room before breakfast, except the kitchen and dining room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not have occasion to go into the dining room, except to arrange the table and raise the window?
A. That is all.
Q. Now you say Mrs. Borden was in the habit of saying, as soon as you finished breakfast, “well Maggie, what have you got to do today?”
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She said that that day, did not she?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What time did Mr. Morse go away?
A. Pretty near nine o’clock, probably.
Q. Did you see him go?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Which way did he go out?
A. The back way.
Q. How do you know it was nine o’clock?
A. It was pretty near it.
Q. Did you have any clock in your kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have a clock in your bed room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You think it was before nine o’clock?
A. I know it was.
Q. 20 minutes before nine?
A. I could not exactly tell the time, but I saw him going out.
Q. He stayed there sometime after breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Mrs. Borden was around the house there?
A. I did not see her; she was in the sitting room I think.
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Q. Dusting?
A. I dont know.
Q. She was in the habit of doing it, was not she?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After breakfast, you say she said “Maggie, what have you got to do today?” as usual, then she said you had better wash the windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had washed them before; you knew what it was to wash the windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had been in the habit of doing that every once in a while?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She told you to wash them on the outside and the in?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Had Lizzie come down then?
A. Yes Sir. Lizzie was through her breakfast then, I think, I should judge she was.
Q. Through what?
A. Through her breakfast, after eating her breakfast.
Q. Did she eat any breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where?
A. In the kitchen.
Q. What?
A. Cookie and coffee.
Q. Are you sure she took any coffee?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How much, one or two cups?
A. She does not ever take two cups.
Q. Are you sure she took coffee that morning?
A. She said she was to have coffee and cookie for her breakfast.
Q. Do you know she took it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You saw her drink it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that after Mr. Morse had gone?
A. I could not tell.
Q. You saw Mr. Morse go?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do not you know whether she came down before or after Mr. Morse went?
A. I dont know. She ate her breakfast in the kitchen.
Q. If Mr. Morse went, he would have to go out the side door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She was in the kitchen eating her breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She came down about nine o’clock?
A. I think it was something before nine, by my thinking.
Q. Five minutes of nine?

Page 64
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Whether it was as early as half past eight?
A. I think it was later than that; of course I did not notice the time?
Q. You think it was between half past eight and nine o’clock she came down?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She came into the kitchen?
A. I could not tell what time it was. She came right into the kitchen.
Q. She said she was going to have a cookie and some coffee for breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did she sit down?
A. By the kitchen table, and this chair was facing.
Q. What chair did she sit down in?
A. In a big old chair that is right by the window, by the side of the table.
Q. Was there any rocking chair there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she sit in that?
A. No Sir.
Q. This chair is an arm chair?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see her reading there?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you see her reading there any time that forenoon?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you have any books there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was not there some old Harpers there, a magazine with pictures in it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where were they kept?
A. In a closet in the kitchen.
Q. You had seen her there looking at them, or reading them?
A. Sometimes I would.
Q. You have seen her sitting down in the kitchen doing that?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How many times?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Often?
A. Not very often.
Q. She came into the kitchen and sat down there?
A. Not very often.
Q. She has done that before, and you have seen her sit down and read there, and look at these magazines?
A. Once in a while.

Page 65
Q. Do you remember whether that morning she sat down in the chair there and read?
A. I did not see her.
Q. You do not remember about it?
A. No Sir.
Q. She partook of her breakfast, what were you doing then?
A. I went out in the back yard when she was eating her breakfast.
Q. Where did she come from?
A. The sitting room.
Q. Where were you?
A. At the sink.
Q. Did you not say yesterday afternoon, the first you saw of her, was when she was there in the screen door, when you were coming back with the poll for the brush?
A. No Sir.
Q. That is not so, at all events?
A. No Sir.
Q. The first you saw of her you were at the kitchen sink?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Cleaning up the breakfast dishes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She came in there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had not then got your brush or pail or pole to wash the windows?
A. No Sir.
Q. She did not then come to the screen door first, as you were coming in, and ask you what you were going to do, and talk about leaving it open, or fastening it?
A. No Sir.
Q. When was that?
A. About an hour later, I should judge, or probably half an hour.
Q. Which do you say?
A. I could not state the time.
Q. Your first impression was an hour?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What had you been doing during that hour?
A. I was washing up my dishes, and cleaning up my kitchen, straightening it out.
Q. Was she sitting there in the kitchen?
A. No Sir.
Q. She did not take her breakfast right off?
A. She had whatever she had, there.
Q. Was she eating her breakfast when you were washing your dishes?
A. No Sir, I was out in the yard when she was eating her breakfast.
Q. When you were out in the yard, and were coming in from the yard, was the time you had the talk about the screen door?
A. No Sir.

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Q. You went out in the yard, that is when you were sick?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When were you taken sick?
A. I felt kind of sick that morning when I was getting up; I did not notice it, because I was always
having headaches.
Q. Did you touch the milk?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not eat any of the bread?
A. No Sir.
Q. They did not eat any of the milk?
A. I think they had it on the toast.
Q. When?
A. Wednesday night.
Q. They were taken sick Tuesday night, you know.
A. Whatever night they had the toast, I know Mr. Borden had milk in it.
Q. You felt sort of sick Thursday morning?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What had you eaten the night before?
A. I do not know. I had some mutton soup, and some bread.
Q. What bread, your own bread?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Anythingelse?
A. No Sir.
Q. Eaten any fruit?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you taste of a pear at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. Not while they were on your kitchen table?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not like them?
A. No Sir.
Q. You never eat them?
A. I do.
Q. Not while you were at the Borden’s?
A. I did last summer, but I am not any great lover of them.
Q. You did not take any of them this year?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you were out in the back yard, when she came down stairs, was the time you were sick to your stomach and vomiting?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go out near the barn?
A. I went out near the pear tree.
Q. Did you go out into the barn then?
A. No Sir.
Q. You went into the barn to get the pole?
A. That was later.
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Q. Now you came back in again. Had Lizzie had her breakfast then?
A. No Sir.
Q. Had you finished washing your dishes?
A. No Sir.
Q. You came back and washed your dishes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was Lizzie doing?
A. I do not know. She was not in the kitchen that I remember.
Q. Had Mr. Morse gone away then?
A. I do not know.
Q. You did not see him go?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Can you not remember whether Mr. Morse went away before or after you finished washing your dishes?
A. He went away before I finished washing my dishes.
Q. Did he go away while you were washing your dishes?
A. Yes Sir. I was washing the dishes when Mr. Borden went to the door with him; he did not go out.
Q. That was after Lizzie had eaten her breakfast?
A. I cannot remember what time it was about Lizzie, and her breakfast.
Q. I presume you cannot remember; I want to see whether you can or not. Was that after you had been out in the back yard, and been sick to your stomach?
A. No Sir.
Q. Now wont you stop to think a moment. I do not want to press you too rapidly, or confuse you.
A. I know Mr. Morse was gone when I went out in the yard.
Q. Then you came back to finish washing the dishes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And Lizzie had her breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After you had finished washing the dishes?
A. She was through before I got through.
Q. Lizzie had her breakfast after you finished washing the dishes?
A. No Sir; she got through before I got through washing the dishes.
Q. That is the way it is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was she having her breakfast when you went in the back yard, and were taken sick to your stomach?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you went out in the back yard, and were sick to your stomach, somewhat, Morse had gone?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You said you came back and went to washing your dishes, and he was gone before you finished your
dishes, and Mr. Borden went to the door and let him out?
A. Yes.
Page 68

Q. Whether Mr. Morse went away before you were sick to your stomach and went out in the back yard, and then came back and finished your dishes?
A. I think he had gone before I went out; I am not sure, but I think he had.
Q. When you came back from the back yard, and went in, washing dishes, Lizzie was there in the kitchen?
A. I did not see her. I left her in the kitchen when I went out.
Q. When you came back from the back yard, that is the last you saw of Lizzie for sometime?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You think Mr. Morse had gone?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Mr. Borden had not gone?
A. I dont know. I did not see him then.
Q. You saw Mr. Borden go away that morning, did you not?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did he usually, or always, go out the back door?
A. Sometimes.
Q. Was not it his habit?
A. I did not see him going out as he went down street, at all.
Q. Was it not his custom to go out of the back door?
A. He went out that way a great deal.
Q. He did not go out when Mr. Morse went?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not see him go out that morning at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. So far as you know, Mr. Borden was in the house then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. He let Mr. Morse out, and told him to came back to dinner, and then went back into the sitting room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You finished washing the dishes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. I put the dining room dishes away, and met Mrs. Borden there, and she asked me to wash the windows. That was when I got through with my dining room dishes, I spoke to Mrs. Borden; that was about nine o’clock, so far as I can think of the time.
Q. Lizzie had had her breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And Morse had gone?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Mr. Borden, you do not know where he was?
A. No Sir.
Q. You never saw him after that?
A. No Sir.
Q. Mrs. Borden was in the dining room?

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A. Yes Sir, dusting.
Q. You say that is the first time she told you about washing the windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you not say before, that she was in the habit of asking you what you had to do that morning, after breakfast?
A. That was the first time she spoke to me after breakfast.
Q. That was the first of it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Not when Mr. Morse was at the table?
A. No Sir.
Q. Not while they were sitting around there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Then this was unusual?
A. She always came out in the kitchen after breakfast, which she did not this morning at all.Q. Then this was unusual?
A. Sometimes she did; but more times she would not.
Q. You told me—
A. Not just after breakfast; sometimes she would go and sit down.
Q. Within a few minutes, ten or fifteen. This was an hour or a half after breakfast?
A. About nine o’clock I guess.
Q. Was it not unusual for her to wait so long?
A. No Sir.
Q. At about nine o’clock every day did she ask you what you had to do?
A. Sometimes she did not need to. I knew myself.
Q. She asked you what you were going to do in the dining room, before you went to get your pail and brush?
A. Not right away.
Q. How soon?
A. About forty minutes, or half an hour after.
Q. You mean forty minutes?
A. Yes, it was a good while after Mrs. Borden spoke to me.
Q. You think perhaps it was half an hour before you went to work to get your pail and brush?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You finished washing your dishes when you went into the dining room, and when Mrs. Borden spoke to you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What were you doing in that forty minutes.
A. I always put away the dining room dishes first, then I had a good deal to do to straighten my kitchen, and to put everything in the closet, and straighten my stove.

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Q. That took you half an hour, or forty minutes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. Went down cellar and got my pail.
Q. Where did you get it?
A. Down cellar in the laundry.
Q. That is the wash room in the back side of the cellar, with the bulk head door that goes out into the back yard?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. Got a brush and went out of doors; went out in the back yard and got a big handle out of the barn.
Q. You went into the barn?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Wherebouts in the barn did you go, in one of the stalls, or up stairs?
A. Right facing when you go in the door.
Q. In one of the stalls?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went in there and got that?
A. Yes Sir. I came out, and got a pail of water out of the barn, and went and began to wash the windows.
Q. You did not come in at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. You said you had some talk with Lizzie at the screen door?
A. Yes, as I was going out with the pail, she spoke to me.
Q. You spoke to her as you were going out, and not when you came back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Tell us about that.
A. Miss Lizzie asked me if I was going to wash windows. I said yes.
Q. Where was that?
A. That was at the back door; I was outside, and she inside.
Q. You were outside, just as you were going out?
A. I had a pail and brush.
Q. You were going out, and she followed you?
A. Yes Sir, she was in the hall, in the back entry.
Q. Did you go by her when you went out?
A. I did not see her.
Q. Could she have come down the back stairs?
A. I did not see her.
Q. The first thing you know, after you got outside the screen door, having the pail and brush, she spoke
to you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had not been to the barn then?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not come into the house then, after you had been to the barn?
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A. Not right away.
Q. Do you not think you went to the barn and got a pail, then came back into the house, and met Miss Lizzie at the screen door?
A. No Sir.
Q. You do not think you said so yesterday?
A. No Sir.
Q. If you did say so yesterday, you were mistaken?
A. I did not say so.
Q. She had some talk with you about the screen door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You said to her she need not fasten it, unless she wanted to?
A. She did not say anything about fastening it. I said “you need not fasten it, I will be around out here, but you can fasten it, if you want to. I will get the water in the barn.”
Q. She did not fasten it, or say anything?
A. No Sir.
Q. You went to the barn and got the water?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How many times did you go?
A. I do not know.
Q. You must have used fifteen or twenty pails of water?
A. No.
Q. How many?
A. Six or seven I should judge.
Q. You washed two windows in the sitting room, three in the parlor, and two in the dining room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had subsequently to take the dipper and rinse them off?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You think you used six or seven pails of water?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Every time you wanted a pail of water, you went to the barn and got it, went into the barn?
A. Yes, I went into the kitchen for the dipper.
Q. You used some pails of water before you went into the kitchen for the dipper?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Every pail of water you wanted, you had to go to the barn and get?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went into the barn, and drew the pail of water, and then came back again?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What windows had you washed before you came in for the dipper?
A. I had them all washed all around with the brush.
Q. You began with the sitting room on the south side of the house, and then went around to the parlor on the front side of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then went around to the dining room, which took you on the

Page 72
north side?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did you begin to rinse them off?
A. Begun at the sitting room.
Q. Just as you had washed them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where was the dipper you got?
A. In the kitchen sink.
Q. The ordinary tin dipper?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you shut any of the windows before you went out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you shut them all?
A. All that was up. I think there was one up in the sitting room.
Q. Which was that?
A. I could not tell you?
Q. You say you did not see Mr. Borden go away?
A. No Sir.
Q. He was in the habit of going out the back door?
A. Yes Sir, sometimes.
Q. He did not go out that way before you went to washing the windows?
A. I did not see him.
Q. Mrs. Borden had her bonnet and shawl there in the sitting room closet?
A. She generally did have.
Q. After you rinsed off the windows, as you emptied the pail, you went in the barn and got another one?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. This barn was open up into the roof up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. There is a stair way that leads up there? There was a lot of old truck in the barn, carriages, and old boxes and implements?
A. I did not go where the carriages was. I know they were there.
Q. After you finished rinsing the windows, what did you do?
A. I commenced to wash the sitting room windows inside.
Q. You came in at the kitchen and went into the sitting room?
A. Yes Sir, I got water and cloths to get ready to wash them?
Q. Was you also going to just rub over the outside too with your cloth?
A. No Sir.
Q. You finished washing outside with the brush, and rinsing them with the dipper?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went into the sitting room, did you raise both windows there?
A. As I was washing them.
Q. Did you raise both at once?

Page 73
A. First one and then the other.
Q. How many windows had you washed before you heard anything at the front door?
A. I had the upper part washed of one of them.
Q. Was that the one nearest the kitchen or parlor?
A. The one nearest to the hall.
Q. That window was up, was it not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you hear the bell ring?
A. I do not know whether I heard the bell ring or not.
Q. You do not recollect today, whether you heard that bell ring or not?
A. No Sir. I know I heard the noise at the door.
Q. You cannot tell whether the bell rang or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. Who tended the bell there in the house?
A. I tended it when nobody was in the house. When Mrs. Borden was in, she went. Mr. Borden went always when he was in the house.
Q. You made a coal fire that morning, did not you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have any boiler there, or have to heat the water with a tea kettle?
A. Heat the water with a tea kettle.
Q. You did not finish washing the dishes until after nine o’clock?
A. Not right finished up.
Q. Then you had to go in there and work around, after Mrs. Borden gave you this direction you testified to, cleaning up in the kitchen? You had a coal fire?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did you keep the flat irons?
A. In a little closet, back of the stove in the kitchen.
Q. Did you have more than one ironing board?
A. Two.
Q. One was larger than the other? The larger was used by you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who used the other?
A. They used it themselves, and they used it when they had a dress maker.
Q. Mrs. Borden and Lizzie and Emma used it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were they in the habit of ironing on the dining room table?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was nothing unusual to have the board on the dining room table?
A. No Sir.
Q. When did you wash that week?
A. Monday.

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Q. Are you sure, did not you wash Tuesday? Was not Monday a stormy day?
A. Yes Sir. I washed Monday.
Q. When did you hang your clothes out?
A. Tuesday.
Q. When did you begin to iron?
A. Wednesday.
Q. If you washed Monday, it was not a good drying day?
A. No Sir. I did not hang them out until Tuesday.
Q. Then you hung them out by going the back way from the cellar?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you finish ironing Wednesday evening?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go out Wednesday evening?
A. Yes Sir,
Q. What time did you get home?
A. Five minutes past ten.
Q. And had your key?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did anybody come with you?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did anybody walk with you that night?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where did you leave the clothes you had ironed Wednesday evening?
A. I put them on the table, folded, and Mr. Borden took a pile, and the girls took the other pile.
Q. When?
A. Wednesday morning.
Q. What girls?
A. Miss Lizzie’s and Miss Emma’s clothes. I always separated them, and laid them in piles.
Q. You said you separated the piles, and Mr. Borden took one, and the girls took their piles; you do not mean that, because Emma was not there?
A. Miss Lizzie must have taken them then.
Q. They did not take them until Thursday morning?
A. No Sir.
Q. They were not ready to be taken?
A. They were on the clothes horse.
Q. They were hung to air as was your habit after finishing ironing?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You folded them up Thursday morning?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You took them off the clothes horse and folded them up?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Perhaps that is one of the things you did after breakfast?
A. No Sir, while I was getting breakfast.
Q. There was one pile for Mr. Borden’s room, and one for Lizzie’s and Emma’s room?
Page 75
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They were not ready until Thursday morning?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where did you pile them up?
A. On the kitchen table.
Q. Where the pears were?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now this small ironing board which you say they were in the habit of using was kept where?
A. In the kitchen closet, behind the door.
Q. It was very much smaller than the ordinary board?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long was it do you think?
A. Maybe something about that length.
Q. About as long as the side of the rail of the desk?
A. Yes. Maybe longer or shorter.
Q. How wide was it?
A. Not quite as wide as a large ironing board.
Q. Wider than that sheet of paper?
A. Yes Sir, something wider than that.
Q. Was it cloth covered?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know how the cloth was fastened on?
A. I do not know.
Q. Do not you remember?
A. No Sir.
Q. Pinned on?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Mrs. Borden and Lizzie and you were in the habit of using that for ironing their small things; and they did it on the dining room table?
A. Yes Sir, if it was hot weather; sometimes they did it in the kitchen.
Q. That was the custom with that small ironing board?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You said Lizzie was ironing, or trying to iron in the dining room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see any flats on the stove?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was she sitting in a chair in the kitchen?
A. When she was ironing?
Q. At that time?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see her in the kitchen there at all?
A. No Sir. She came in the kitchen before I went up stairs.
Page 76
A. No; not to my memory, I did not see her.
Q. Did not you ever see her there in the kitchen in the rocking chair, the big chair, reading?
A. I do not remember.
Q. Did not you say this morning, you had seen her there reading?
A. Not that morning.
Q. At any time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Are you prepared to say when you came in for the dipper, she was not sitting reading in the kitchen?
A. I do not remember to see her.
Q. You would not say she was not?
A. No Sir. I do not remember of seeing her.
Q. When you came in for the dipper, you went right straight out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did you get the dipper from?
A. At the sink, at the head of it.
Q. Now I will come back again to your finding her ironing. Did you see the handkerchiefs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know when she sprinkled them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you know when she washed them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did not she wash some handkerchiefs several days before that?
A. Lizzie always washed her own handkerchiefs.
Q. Several days before that?
A. No Sir.
Q. They were not washed that week, because you washed on Monday, and dried Tuesday, and ironed Wednesday?
A. I do not remember.
Q. Do you remember whether she sprinkled any handkerchiefs in the kitchen?
A. I do not remember. I often saw her do it.
Q. Did you see a pile of handkerchiefs on the dining room table when she was trying to iron, or ironing them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were they rolled up, as clothes are when they are ironed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did they appear to be sprinkled?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you came in after the dipper, was not she there in the kitchen?
A. I did not see her.
Q. Just think a moment?
A. Not to my memory, I did not see her.
Q. When you came in for the dipper, was not she there in the kitchen, there in the arm chair you speak of, or in the rocking chair? Just think a moment; wait and take your time.

Page 77
Q. They are sprinkled because they are a little too dry to iron?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. These appeared that way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know how many she had ironed?
A. No Sir.
Q. Some were ironed, you think, and there was a roll unironed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You are not sure whether the door bell rung or not?
A. I do not remember.
Q. You went to the door, and she was ironing?
A. She was not ironing when I went to the door.
Q. You said you found her ironing there when you went into the sitting room?
A. No Sir.
Q. You do not mean that, then?
A. No Sir.
Q. You heard the door bell ring?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When did she begin to iron then?
A. She began to iron when I was getting through with the windows.
Q. You had begun with the window in the sitting room?
A. In the dining room.
Q. Did you not wash the sitting room windows before you did the dining room windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had not finished the sitting room window when Mr. Borden came?
A. No Sir.
Q. You do not know whether you heard the bell ring or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. You are not able to say whether she was in the kitchen or not; you say you do not recollect of seeing her? You would not swear she was not in the kitchen when you came in with your dipper?
A. No Sir. I did not see her.
Q. You say you saw some handkerchiefs on the dining room table?
A. Not at that time.
Q. You did not see them there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You heard the bell ring?
A. I heard the noise; I went to the door.
Q. You are not sure whether the bell rung or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. You went to the door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was everyone of those locks fastened?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you say?
Page 78
A. I went to the door, and let Mr. Borden in.
Q. What did you say?
A. Say to who?
Q. When you were opening the door. I am waiting Miss Sullivan.
A. I let Mr. Borden in. I got puzzled at the door, I said “Oh pshaw” at the door. Miss Lizzie laughed up stairs.
Q. That is all you said “Oh, pshaw”?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Why did you object to telling me that? Do you consider that to be all wrong?
A. No Sir.
Q. That is all, and everything you said “Oh pshaw”?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And she laughed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In her room?
A. Either in her room, or in the hall, I do not know which.
Q. Was not she in her own room?
A. I do not know.
Q. What did you do?
A. I let Mr. Borden in, and went back to my work in the sitting room.
Q. Where did he go?
A. In the dining room.
Q. What happened next?
A. Miss Lizzie came down a little while after.
Q. Do you know whether she did or not?
A. Yes Sir, she came through the hall, and in from the sitting room.
Q. Did you see her come through the hall?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you say so yesterday?
A. Yes Sir. The first she came there, she came from the hall into the sitting room.
Q. Who was in the sitting room?
A. I was there.
Q. Where was her father?
A. In the dining room.
Q. She went in there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And asked him if there was any mail?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. He said none for her?
A. I do not know what he said; they were talking.
Q. Did he have anything in his hand?
A. When I saw him. I did not see him then.
Q. When he came in, did he have anything in his hand?
A. A parcel.
Q. A white parcel?
A. Yes Sir.

Page 79
Q. Any key or brass lock in his hand?
A. I did not notice it.
Q. Did one hand seem to be free, and the other to have a package in it?
A. I did not notice, only that he had a little package.
Q. He sat down in the dining room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What passed between them then?
A. I heard Miss Lizzie tell him about a note, that the mother had a note, and had gone out, very slowly. They were talking very slowly, and were talking to themselves.
Q. Why do you put in that expression, “very slowly”? Why do you use that expression, because she said it so?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Because she said that very much more slowly than anything else she said?
A. Well, no.
Q. She did not?
A. No Sir.
Q. Everything she said, she said very slowly?
A. Ordinarily slow.
Q. Do you mean I should understand when she spoke about the letter or note, that Mrs. Borden had got, she spoke more slowly than she did the rest of it?
A. No Sir, just the same.
Q. And had gone out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did her father make any reply to that?
A. No Sir. I did not hear him saying anything.
Q. What did you do next?
A. I finished washing the sitting room windows.
Q. What did you do next?
A. I washed the windows.
Q. In what room?
A. The sitting room and dining room both.
Q. Had you finished the sitting room window then?
A. No Sir. Mr. Borden came through the kitchen door, and took a key off his shelf, and went up into his room.
Q. Up stairs did he keep a safe?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In a room leading off his room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Since you have been there, that house has been broken into?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And entered in broad day light?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Money and a gold watch, and things taken?
A. So they said.
Q. Drawers broken open?

Page 80
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You were at home that day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where were you?
A. Doing my work.
Q. You did not see anybody come in or go out?
A. No Sir.
Q. Miss Emma was in the house that day, up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. All this happened in broad daylight, and nobody saw anybody come or go?
A. No Sir.
Q. How long ago was that?
A. A year last July, I guess.
Q. Since that time the barn has been broken into?
A. I think it was.
Q. How long ago was the barn burglarized?
A. I cannot tell you.
Q. Not long ago?
A. I do not think so.
Q. Within a few months the barn was broken into, and something taken or tried to be taken out of that, so far as you know?
A. Yes Sir,
Q. Has the barn been broken into more than once? It has been twice, has it not?
A. I do not remember.
Q. You only remember once?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now he went into the sitting room, took this key and went up stairs to his room.?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was you doing?
A. Washing the sitting room windows. As he came down, I was taking the step ladder from the sitting room into the dining room. He went in the sitting room, and sat down at the window in the sitting room, and had a paper or book, or something in his hand. I cannot tell what it was. That was the last I saw of him.
Q. Did you go in the dining room from there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was Lizzie there then?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you know where she was?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did she come into the dining room?
A. She came from the sitting room into the dining room.
Q. Did she bring the ironing board in then?
A. No Sir.

Page 81
Q. Were the handkerchiefs on the table?
A. I did not see them.
Q. What was you doing then?
A. Washing windows in the dining room. I got through my windows, Miss Lizzie came from the kitchen with an ironing board, and placed it on the table.
Q. This small board?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she begin to iron?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she bring these handkerchiefs you told us about— did she bring them in then?
A. I suppose so.
Q. Did you see her have them?
A. No. I saw them on the table.
Q. They were rolled up, and appeared to be sprinkled?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see her iron any of them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How many did she iron, two or three?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Did she go back into the kitchen again?
A. She had a flat ironing.
Q. Did she go into the kitchen, and get another one?
A. I do not remember.
Q. Did she say anything to you?
A. She said then, was I going out. She asked me if I was going out this afternoon. I said I did not know, I might and I might not. I was not feeling very well. She said if I went out, to be sure and fasten the back door, she might be out too, and Mrs. Borden out. Mrs. Borden had a note that morning, she said she had gone out on a sick call. I asked her who was sick. She said she had a note that morning; so it must be in
town.
Q. Did she say anythingelse to you then?
A. Not then.
Q. Directly afterwards?
A. I got through with my work, and was in the kitchen. Then she told me there was a sale of dress goods in Sargent’s, eight cents a yard. I said I would have one. That is all.
Q. Did not she make the statement about the sale of dress goods at Frank Sargeants, if that is the name, two or three days before that?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did she ever tell you about any sale at Sargeants before this particular day?
A. No Sir.
Q. It is the first time she ever mentioned it?
A. Yes Sir.

Page 82
Q. About any chance of buying any?
A. Yes sir. Emma had a good many times told me about bargains.
Q. Miss Lizzie had not before, so far as you recollect?
A. No Sir.
Q. What did you do next?
A. I went up stairs directly after that.
Q. You went up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now you said that was a few minutes of eleven when you went up stairs?
A. Yes Sir, three or four minutes of eleven.
Q. Did you look at the clock in the kitchen?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you at the one in your room when you got up stairs?
A. No Sir.
Q. So far as the clock in your room is concerned, you have no recollection of what time it was then you got up stairs?
A. I think it was two or three minutes afterwards.
Q. You laid on the outside of the bed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you take off your shoes or any clothing?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you go to bed?
A. No Sir.
Q. When you laid there, you heard the clock strike eleven?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When Miss Lizzie shouted to you, as you said yesterday, did you look at your clock?
A. No Sir.
Q. You said you thought it was ten or fifteen minutes past eleven?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that your impression merely?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not look at any clock?
A. No Sir.
Q. When you got down stairs you found her up against the door?
A. She was standing near the door.
Q. Was she leaning against it, or holding on to it?
A. I did not notice. She was leaning up, as anybody would be, against the door.
Q. Was she standing up near the door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was she against it?
A. I should think she was.
Q. Did she have her hands to her face, or head at that time?
A. Not that I knew of.
Q. Was she wringing her hands, or doing anything at that time?

Page 83
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not see her?
A. No Sir.
Q. She sent you for Dr. Bowen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You hurried across, and did not find him, and came back again?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then she sent you for Miss Russell, down on Borden street? You went there, and came back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see Mrs. Churchill?
A. No Sir, not until I came back.
Q. When you got back from Miss Russell’s, did you see Mrs. Churchill?
A. Yes Sir, she was in the house.
Q. Did you tell her anything about this affair? Did you talk with her about it?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you tell her anything about any note?
A. Yes Sir, I guess the note was going all around; everybody was talking about the note.
Q. Whether you told her anything about a note.
A. Yes Sir, I guess she told me what Miss Lizzie was telling me.
Q. Did you tell Mrs. Churchill Mrs. Borden had told you she had a note from somebody, and was going on a sick call, and went away without telling you where she went?
A. No Sir, Mrs. Borden did not say anything to me about a note.
Q. Whether you said to Mrs. Churchill that? Do you remember of talking with her about it?
A. I might tell her what Miss Lizzie told me.
Q. Never mind about the might. I want to call to your mind, if I can, whether in the talk you had with Mrs. Churchill, you said to her that Mrs. Borden was away; that she told you that she had got a note, and had gone off on a sick call; and she went away without telling you anything about it?
A. I do not know if I told her that.
Q. Or without telling you where she was going?
A. I do not remember if I did.
Q. What do you think about it?
A. I do not remember it.
Q. You do not remember saying anything of that sort?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did talk with Mrs. Churchill?
A. Yes Sir I did.
Q. Did you go for Dr. Bowen more than once?
A. Yes, I went twice.
Q. You went first for Dr. Bowen, and came back, and then went for Miss Russell, and then went for Dr. Bowen again?
Page 84
A. I went over, Miss Lizzie sent me over, to tell Mrs. Bowen to come over.
Q. Then you went across the street three times?
A. I went twice to Dr. Bowen’s. I went down to Miss Russell’s once.
Q. Did you go over to Mrs. Bowen’s after you came back from Miss Russell’s?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went first for Dr. Bowen, then for Miss Russell, and then came back and went for Mrs. Bowen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is the way of it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were you in the habit of going out in the back yard?
A. No Sir, excepting my business would carry me there.
Q. There were a number of trees there, pear trees?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Any other trees?
A. Not as I know of.
Q. A pile of boards against Dr. Chagnon’s fence?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was Mr. Borden in the habit of opening the barn early in the morning?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. With the key he himself had?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It stayed open all day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was he in the habit of going there, in the barn?
A. I did not notice.
Q. You do not know whether any of the family went to the barn during the day, or not, except from guess work?
A. No Sir.
Q. They may have gone twenty times a day, and you not know anything about it?
A. No Sir; I did not see them.
Q. Did you go up stairs in this house, after Miss Lizzie gave the alarm? Did you go up stairs in the house where Mrs. Borden was, before or after you went for Mrs. Bowen?
A. After I went up stairs.
Q. You went for Mrs. Bowen after you went up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was it that you went down cellar the day of the tragedy, I mean after it happened, when was it you went down cellar?
A. I could not tell you what time it was.
Q. Was it pretty soon after?
A. I should think it was. I could not tell the time.
Q. You went down with some officers?
A. Yes Sir.
Page 85
Q. Wherebouts in the cellar did you go?
A. I went in all the rooms, I think.
Q. You said these men found some axes in a box?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. This box was where?
A. In the little room back of the furnace.
Q. Was that in the part of the cellar towards the front side of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The furthest from the stairway where you went down stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The stairway that goes into the cellar, goes down from the back entry?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That takes you down under the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The wash room is under the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. With a door into the back yard?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Going along through the cellar is a room, what is that used for, a water closet?
A. No Sir, Mr. Borden kept wood there for the furnace.
Q. Beyond that was the furnace, going towards the front?
A. There was the furnace, and there was the door.
Q. This box in which the axes were, was near the front part of the cellar? That part of the cellar that is under the front part of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who found those axes?
A. I could not tell you who the officers were; I was with them.
Q. How many were there?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. What kind of a box were they in?
A. A box we used to keep starch in, I think.
Q. That starch would come in?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Standing, with their heads down in the box, and their handles sticking up?
A. As near as I can remember.
Q. Can you tell how many there were?
A. No Sir, I saw them there; one of the officers took them.
Q. Did you see them up stairs?
A. No Sir, I do not remember.
Q. Did you see them on the table up stairs?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you know what officer it was?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you know any one of the officers who went down stairs at the

Page 86
time you did?
A. No sir. They were all strangers to me; I did not know any of them.
Q. When you saw Miss Lizzie there at the foot of the stairs, at that time when she gave the alarm, what
dress did she have on?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Dark or light?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. What dress did she wear that morning?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Did you see any blood on her?
A. No Sir, I did not notice any blood on her.
Q. Did you see any blood anywhere, except in the places told about in this case?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where with reference to these back stairs was this room that was broken into when the money was taken, and the gold watch &c?
A. At the top of the back stairs, Mrs. Borden’s room.
Q. Is that where the safe is?
A. Going in from where Mrs. Borden’s bed room is.
Q. If I understand you, this room that was burglarized, when the house was entered sometime ago, was a room that led out of Mrs. Borden’s room? You could get into it by going up the back stairs?
A. You have to go into Mrs. Borden’s room first.
Q. That leads out of the back stairway?
A. Yes.
Q. Those stairs are carpeted, and have been for years?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know what dress Mrs. Borden had on that day?
A. No Sir.
Q. What dress did you have on?
A. A calico dress.
Q. Where is that dress now?
A. Down home where I am.
Q. You are staying here in town?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see Mr. Borden at any time that morning empty his pail, his slop pail?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that before or after breakfast?
A. Before breakfast.
Q. Did you see Miss Lizzie empty hers?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was she in the habit of doing it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They each did that, and were accustomed to do it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know who emptied the slop pail, if there was any, in the

Page 87
room Mr. Morse occupies, that morning?
A. I do not remember.
Q. There was one in there?
A. I do not know.
Q. There was not running water in any of the chambers?
A. No Sir.
Q. The place where Miss Lizzie had her bowl and pitcher was a little closet?
A. I do not know.
Q. Was you ever there?
A. I was in the room, but I did not notice where she kept her pitcher or anything else?
Q. After the tragedy, did you yourself empty any pails?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or see any emptied?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see people washing their hands around there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where were they washing them?
A. In the sink.
Q. How many different people?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Several?
A. I did not see anybody that I remember, except Dr. Dolan and Dr. Coughlan. I think I noticed them two.
Q. Dr. Coughlan?
A. I think I saw him washing his hands.
Q. Anybody else?
A. No Sir, not as I remember.
Q. Did you see anybody washing their hands up stairs?
A. No Sir, I was not up stairs.
Q. Only once when you went up, as you told me?
A. Yes Sir.

THIS ENDS VOLUME I —– SEE CONTINUATION IN SEPARATE POST FOR VOLUME II.

 
2 Comments

Posted by on November 16, 2014 in Fall River, Investigations & The Trial, MA

 

Tits & Ass – Lizzie Borden Never Showed Hers

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Christina Ricci. Alas, sex sells. And the 4.4 million viewers who tuned in for her Lifetime Channel Lizzie bio-pic have sent programming execs into hyper-drive. The Lizzie Chronicles will delight sponsors and foster more irrevocable myth and misinformation. Combine a nubile sexual characterization of a notorious, albeit enigmatic, subject of patricide with an “Axe” and how the hell can you miss? I believe I can say with certainty the final “Chronicle” will not have anything resembling Lizzie Borden’s actual deathbed thoughts as written about in my previous post (see link in Red above).

Lizzie could act, however.  Just read her Inquest Testimony.  As for Ms. Ricci – well, read this short article.:

http://www.dailytoss.com/…/christina-ricci-news-updates-an…/.

I suppose the only people who will like the “Fall River Chronicles” will be those who hope it helps in selling their own fictional books with similar “artistic” (gag) liberties of Lizzie and those who knew her, some knuckle-dragging males, and others who enjoy the stories which air on the Lifetime Movie Channel.  (double gag).

Me, I think if you want to create fiction based on fact why not just use Fall River as a backdrop and create original, compelling characters?  Margaret Mitchell did it with the Civil War and we still adored Rhett and Scarlett.   Besides, a mini series titled “Fall River Chronicles” could be much more interesting than just Lizzie’ Borden’s story – fact or fiction. There are the mills and stratified society dissected by mill workers on the one hand and  mill owners on the other; the land swaps and swindles; the founding families; the town’s rise to the nation’s cotton production King; the immigrant labor migration, and on and on.

Oh well.  Tits and ass.  That’s what brings them in and makes sponsors smile.  :)

 
3 Comments

Posted by on November 6, 2014 in Fall River, MA, Theatre & Film, TV

 

Lizzie Borden’s Dying Act of Kindness

Originally posted on Tattered Fabric: Fall River's Lizzie Borden:

Lizzie Borden died 84 years ago today.  She died at 8:30 pm on June 1, 1927  (a Wednesday) in her home in Fall River, MA.  She had been lingering all day, surrounded by her chauffeur and two servants:  Ernest Terry, Ellen Miller, and Florence Pemberton.  There were others who came to the house as well.

The Reverend Cleveland from the nearby Church of Ascension – a few doors down from Central Congregational  Church on Rock Street – would execute the wishes Lizzie had written out on March 31, 1919.   Vida Turner would come in and be instructed to sing “My Ain’ Country”, tell no one she had been there and then leave immediately.

The reporting a few days later of Lizzie’s Will was regional front page news and appeared in many newspapers across the country recounting the horrific hatchet murders of August 4, 1892, and Lizzie’s subsequent arrest, trial and…

View original 611 more words

 
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Posted by on November 6, 2014 in Uncategorized

 
 
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